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Forums - Politics Discussion - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

VGPolyglot said:
NATO said:

Basically every first world capitalist country, you know, like the one you live in.

Go compare a map of capitalist countries, compare it with a map of median age at death, compare it with a map of average income, then economic stability, then just for fun, compare it to a map of highest minimum wage.

 

Then do the same thing for a map of socialist countries.

Obviously the average income is going to be lower, their economies aren't as big. Cuba had one of the highest life expectancies in the world though, in spite of an embargo by the biggest economy in the world. Though I wouldn't call them socialist anymore since they legalized small and medium private businesses:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36375807

Still doesn't answer my question, I was waiting for you to say bolivia so I could remind you that this short term stability hinges on the massive inflation of price of the natural resources that are abundant and their main export, yet despite that there's still a consistent uptick in inflation compared to capitalist countries too.



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Americans can learn a lot from European nations. Lower crime rates, universal education and universal health system. Higher taxes is a small price to pay for a fairer and more equal society.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Americans can learn a lot from European nations... universal education.

The U.S actually has a higher tertiary education attainment rate than all European countries except for Russia and Luxembourg. What it's lacking is a robust skilled labor-force (like Germany's.) Academia isn't everything. Secondary education is pretty lackluster in the U.S despite being universal. There are many reasons why, but no easy solutions unfortunately. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

"This is a list of countries by 25- to 64-year-olds having completed tertiary education as published by the OECD."


Country
Age
25-64
(%)
Age
Year

Non-OECD
25-34
(%)
35-44
(%)
45-54
(%)
55-64
(%)
 Canada 54 58 61 51 45 2014  
 Russia 54 58 55 53 50 2013
 Israel 49 46 53 48 47 2014  
 Japan 48 59 53 47 35 2014  
 Luxembourg 46 53 56 40 32 2014  
 South Korea 45 68 56 33 17 2014  
 United States 44 46 47 43 41 2014  
 Australia 42 48 46 38 33 2014  
 Finland 42 40 50 44 34 2014  
 Norway 42 49 49 36 32 2014  
 United Kingdom 42 49 46 38 35 2014  
 Ireland 41 51 49 34 24 2014  
  Switzerland 40 46 45 38 31 2014  
 Sweden 39 46 46 32 30 2014  
 Estonia 38 40 39 35 36 2014  
 Belgium 37 44 42 34 26 2014  
 Iceland 37 41 42 36 29 2014  
 Lithuania 37 53 38 30 28 2014
 Denmark 36 42 41 33 29 2014  
 New Zealand 36 40 41 32 29 2014  
 Spain 35 41 43 30 21 2014  
 Netherlands 34 44 38 30 27 2014  
 France 32 44 39 26 20 2013  
 Austria 30 38 33 27 21 2014  
 Latvia 30 39 31 27 23 2014
 Slovenia 29 38 35 24 18 2014  
 Greece 28 39 27 26 21 2014  
 Germany 27 28 29 26 25 2014  
 Poland 27 43 32 18 14 2014  
 Hungary 23 32 25 20 17 2014  
 Colombia 22 28 23 18 16 2014
 Czech Republic 22 30 21 20 15 2014  
 Portugal 22 31 26 17 13 2014  
 Saudi Arabia 22 26 22 18 14 2013
 Chile 21 27 24 17 14 2013  
 Slovakia 20 30 21 15 14 2014  
 Mexico 19 25 17 16 13 2014  
 Costa Rica 18 21 19 17 17 2014
 Italy 17 24 19 13 12 2014  
 Turkey 17 25 16 10 10 2014  
 Brazil 14 15 14 14 11 2013
 China 10 18 9 6 4 2010
 Indonesia 8 10 9 8 4 2011
 South Africa 7 5 7 8 7 2012


the-pi-guy said:

One thing I wonder.  I hear a lot of claims about how government is more inefficient than private industry, but I've never seen studies to support it.  

Just arguments about certain implementations, but those implementations aren't necessarily part of a government. 

In some instances, it is pretty clear that government does some things better than private industry, because private industry just wants to make money.  (Notably private prisons.)

 

I'm not really for socialism, but I think people should be guaranteed at least some standard of life, such as healthcare.  

You already gave the answer on why private companies run better than government.

They have the need to profit, so their process are make as efficient as possible, with cost reduction as a need and also driving prices down to get more customers also having to take care of debts.

While government just raise tax to cover holes, give themselves higher salary independent of their performance, are very tolerant with their debt, don't depend on the population liking or wanting the service to take the money and finally the most important point is that a big centralized government can't know the demands of every single small area on the country.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Leadified said:
DonFerrari said:

Work that can be easily substituted and that the government impose a minimum wage will move to places where they can do it, because in case you haven't forget customers also keep requesting smaller prices.

Well there you go, now you know why capitalism drives exploitation.

Sure summarizing People want higher wages doing less work while also paying less for more product (an antithesis that can only be met by increasing productivity and lowering other costs, unless of course government impose several restrictions that make that balance impossible). That is basically also why Socialism wouldn't ever work.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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As a doctorate student in political theory, studying post-Marxism, the author is wrong. It is complete misinformation and skews over many topics whilst oversimplifying others.



Socialism = The form of capitalism that strives towards a more economically egalitarian arrangement, usually by focusing on state control of industries and trade, high taxation. In its most typical form, socialism is a mere policy line and in our days it should be seen as an inverse form of austerity economics (where focus is not placed on egalitarianism, but instead on protecting capital and investment at the expense of the low and middle class prosperity). Austerity is now the neo-con equivalent to the left-winger's socialism. Both systems are part and parcel of neoliberal capitalism and form the redemptive and pragmatic faces of the same thing. Scandinavian countries are closest to a healthy form of democracy with socialist aims. Marxism should not be conflated with either socialism nor Leninism.



RolStoppable said:
Venezuela failed you, you communist.

...but it wasn't real socialism. /s

Socialism - any of the various economic and political theories advocating collective or government ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. 

Venezuela was the 4th GDP in the world under colonialism, and now socialism and dependence on global oil prices has stricken them into poverty. I'm still waiting for Socialism not to fail it's people. You can't point to Sweden anymore. For one, it's economic policies shifted capitalist during its economic boom, and two it's now on pace to become a third world country by 2030 according to the UN. 

I prefer capitalism, and I prefer enforcement that prevents monopolies, but ironically many current regulations in place actually help corporations and kill competition. The regulation debate is a totally different thing, but overall I prefer private ownership of companies. I oppose socialism for its historical failures time and time again and also the deaths that socialist leadership has led to because communists time and time again abuse their power and enslave their people. However, I also oppose the global central banking systems and foreigners being able to purchase land in a country they do not live in which is what I consider the problems with current American economic policy. We have a massive problem in America where Chinese, Russian, and foreign Jewish bankers own a lot of American land. I can't find the chart I'm looking for, but basically it allows these groups own a lot more land than one would think reasonable and they sit on high house prices even if no one is buying which is only going to lead more people into debt. 



DonFerrari said:
Leadified said:

Well there you go, now you know why capitalism drives exploitation.

Sure summarizing People want higher wages doing less work while also paying less for more product (an antithesis that can only be met by increasing productivity and lowering other costs, unless of course government impose several restrictions that make that balance impossible). That is basically also why Socialism wouldn't ever work.

Ah the blame socialism excuse when capitalism is in danger, classic .

Helloplite said:
Socialism = The form of capitalism that strives towards a more economically egalitarian arrangement, usually by focusing on state control of industries and trade, high taxation. In its most typical form, socialism is a mere policy line and in our days it should be seen as an inverse form of austerity economics (where focus is not placed on egalitarianism, but instead on protecting capital and investment at the expense of the low and middle class prosperity). Austerity is now the neo-con equivalent to the left-winger's socialism. Both systems are part and parcel of neoliberal capitalism and form the redemptive and pragmatic faces of the same thing. Scandinavian countries are closest to a healthy form of democracy with socialist aims. Marxism should not be conflated with either socialism nor Leninism.

The problem with the social democratic definition of socialism is that it throws every other socialist under the bus. Since socdems want to work within the capitalist framework and other socialists want to replace the capitalist system, the two definitions become irreconcilable. Perhaps we should abandon the socialist label in public and just go with Marxism/communism for the Marx inspired ideologies and anarchist for the others.

Also Marx used socialism and communism interchangeably to mean the same thing. Social democrats today are more or less the reformists from Marx's time although most of them have abandoned the goal of replacing capitalism. Chavez was the notable example of a modern social democrat that attempted to achieve socialism through reform with his "Socialism of the 21st century". The 1888 English preface to the Communist Manifesto includes an explanation from Engles why the text is not called the socialist manifesto, since the word 'socialist' has increasingly become associated with a middle class movement instead of a working class movement. Lenin built upon Marx & Engles' ideas in the Russian context and one of his ideas was calling the lower stage of communism, "socialism", essentially trying to reclaim the term. However all this has now done is create more confusion, since now "socialism" (social democracy) is conflated with Soviet "socialism", even though the systems are completely different.

Last edited by Leadified - on 02 February 2018

teamsilent13 said:
RolStoppable said:
Venezuela failed you, you communist.

...but it wasn't real socialism. /s

Socialism - any of the various economic and political theories advocating collective or government ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. 

Venezuela was the 4th GDP in the world under colonialism, and now socialism and dependence on global oil prices has stricken them into poverty. I'm still waiting for Socialism not to fail it's people. You can't point to Sweden anymore. For one, it's economic policies shifted capitalist during its economic boom, and two it's now on pace to become a third world country by 2030 according to the UN. 

I prefer capitalism, and I prefer enforcement that prevents monopolies, but ironically many current regulations in place actually help corporations and kill competition. The regulation debate is a totally different thing, but overall I prefer private ownership of companies. I oppose socialism for its historical failures time and time again and also the deaths that socialist leadership has led to because communists time and time again abuse their power and enslave their people. However, I also oppose the global central banking systems and foreigners being able to purchase land in a country they do not live in which is what I consider the problems with current American economic policy. We have a massive problem in America where Chinese, Russian, and foreign Jewish bankers own a lot of American land. I can't find the chart I'm looking for, but basically it allows these groups own a lot more land than one would think reasonable and they sit on high house prices even if no one is buying which is only going to lead more people into debt. 

Why would I point to Venezuela or Sweden? They're not socialist. And it doesn't make sense to say "not real socialism" since even when their economy was doing well socialists didn't consider them to be socialist.