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What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

Forums - Politics Discussion - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

sc94597 said:
Locknuts said:
The question remains: Why would you want to replace a system that has produced the highest standards of living and longest life expectancies for the most people in human history with something as radical as 'real socialism' and ultimately Communism?

The chances of a radical new system actually working as well as what we have now are so small it's completely irresponsible to even propose the idea (as anything more than just an idea) until what we have collapses irreparably.

Because we can always do better? Capitalism replaced feudalism which replaced slave societies which replaced tribal communities, etc. When the benefits of capitalism are so disproportionate why settle on it and say, "yep this is the best social system"? 

Why do you think the chances of a new radical system working as well as what we have now are so small? There was a time when capitalism was radical and the aristocrats were warning about the instability and "radicalism" of liberal democracy. 

What we have now will collapse, albeit not all at once. Just like feudal institutions didn't collapse all at once. But if people don't put pressure on the system, nothing will change. Just as if the civil rights movement didn't happen, nothing would've changed for black-Americans. Social change isn't automatic. It must be actively achieved. 

I can appreciate the conservative argument that this change should be well-thought out and not imposed on other people though, despite this. 

Small, incremental improvements are fine, of course. I'm of the opinion that what we have now is a fragile miracle. Changing things too radically will most likely mean more suffering.



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VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

And do 75% of the americans not own a car that they could sell? That alone would make the 10k... and considering the average earning of the Americans is like 6x this per year, their lack of savings is much more on how they manage their money than the lack of making that money.

Also if you read again "group of people saving 10k" so it isn't a single person. And again look more and you'll find that a lot of these americans (and brazilian) started their business even though they don't have 10k in savings.

The average commute to work necessitates a vehicle:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2014/us-commuting.aspx

So they can't just sell them.

Necessitating a car doesn't mean a 15k USD car, there are plenty of 500 USD cars.

For every barrier you or socialism think and that the government feel they'll need to intervene, capitalism and entrepreneur find an alternative for the problem and solve it. The government just end up putting more barriers, and people saying others can't thrive without their help or intervention just do those people a disfavor.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:

I'm pretty certain that if we extinguished all forms of government and distributed equally all the money, property and etc among people it wouldn't take more than 3 generations to get a level of inequality similar to our.

My thoughts exactly. Steal all the money and property from the rich and give it to the poor and in a short time it will be all the same. Or worse.

I have a family story that somehow resembles your. My father was from a family of 12. All extremely poor. I was born when my father was 17 and my mother 21, living on rent in a crappy place. But they both were always very hard workers and smart and with vision, very different from the rest of their families. My father was the only one that decided to study. They all could have done the same. But decided stay home. Several times my father told them to go study, invest in the future. They didnt want to.

My father became very successful, it allowed me to study in a good school and became kind of successful for brazilian standards. Today we can say both he, my mother and I are part of the "elite", capitalists pigs, living out of other people sweat. We were"privileged" and my father helps a lot of people in the family who didnt have the same "luck" and "opportunities" as him. Yeah... pure luck...

Capitalism allows you to ascend and have a better life, have property and pass this to your sons and generate a circle of development. Even in a "shithole" country like Brazil.



DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

The average commute to work necessitates a vehicle:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2014/us-commuting.aspx

So they can't just sell them.

Necessitating a car doesn't mean a 15k USD car, there are plenty of 500 USD cars.

For every barrier you or socialism think and that the government feel they'll need to intervene, capitalism and entrepreneur find an alternative for the problem and solve it. The government just end up putting more barriers, and people saying others can't thrive without their help or intervention just do those people a disfavor.

"The government" did you read my OP?



I don't know what you call this but I believe that through tax revenue, the government should provide the basic needs for their citizens to be healthy and happy including:

Education
Emergency Services
Healthy Environment
and Healthcare



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ArchangelMadzz said:
I don't know what you call this but I believe that through tax revenue, the government should provide the basic needs for their citizens to be healthy and happy including:

Education
Emergency Services
Healthy Environment
and Healthcare

Social democracy.



ArchangelMadzz said:
I don't know what you call this but I believe that through tax revenue, the government should provide the basic needs for their citizens to be healthy and happy including:

Education
Emergency Services
Healthy Environment
and Healthcare

We have all that in switzerland, even if the country is very liberal, is a Direct democracy here.

And we start making test soon on RBI in a few town/city.



VGPolyglot said:
ArchangelMadzz said:
I don't know what you call this but I believe that through tax revenue, the government should provide the basic needs for their citizens to be healthy and happy including:

Education
Emergency Services
Healthy Environment
and Healthcare

Social democracy.

Thanks.

Saeko said:
ArchangelMadzz said:
I don't know what you call this but I believe that through tax revenue, the government should provide the basic needs for their citizens to be healthy and happy including:

Education
Emergency Services
Healthy Environment
and Healthcare

We have all that in switzerland, even if the country is very liberal, is a Direct democracy here.

And we start making test soon on RBI in a few town/city.

Yeah we have that here in the UK too which I'm very happy about. 

I hate the idea that someone gets a serious illness and they have to worry about debt from healthcare bills. 



PS4 and PC gaming

 

PC Specs:
AMD Ryzen 9 3900x
Zotac Nvidia RTX 2070 Super
32GB DDR4 Corsair Vengence Ram 3200 mhz
1TB Samsung Qvo SSD
Corsair Spec-Delta Case
Asus ROG B450-F Motherboard

Vincoletto said:
DonFerrari said:

I'm pretty certain that if we extinguished all forms of government and distributed equally all the money, property and etc among people it wouldn't take more than 3 generations to get a level of inequality similar to our.

My thoughts exactly. Steal all the money and property from the rich and give it to the poor and in a short time it will be all the same. Or worse.

I have a family story that somehow resembles your. My father was from a family of 12. All extremely poor. I was born when my father was 17 and my mother 21, living on rent in a crappy place. But they both were always very hard workers and smart and with vision, very different from the rest of their families. My father was the only one that decided to study. They all could have done the same. But decided stay home. Several times my father told them to go study, invest in the future. They didnt want to.

My father became very successful, it allowed me to study in a good school and became kind of successful for brazilian standards. Today we can say both he, my mother and I are part of the "elite", capitalists pigs, living out of other people sweat. We were"privileged" and my father helps a lot of people in the family who didnt have the same "luck" and "opportunities" as him. Yeah... pure luck...

Capitalism allows you to ascend and have a better life, have property and pass this to your sons and generate a circle of development. Even in a "shithole" country like Brazil.

Capitalism is imperfect and meritocracy have distortions and privileges, but still have no system that can really do it better.

I'm sorry for the rest of your family but happy your parents saw the path forward.

3/4 of my ancestors were slaves (even though I'm white skinned). Their path forward started with the great grandparents. On my father side my great grandfather came from Bahia to São Paulo walking to find a place to work (had found the good place in Minas near Bahia) sometime after he returned to the land he found. Settled with my great grandmother and started the family with both and the eldest son working the land, while all son and daughter had the opportunity to study (although the eldest because of the farm work didn't had as much disposition), my grandfather finished technical high school and ascended to bank manager in his late career also because of his achievements a lot of the nephews and nieces saw that studying was their chance to grow. My grandmother was a clerk on a store and from their marriage my father and his brother and sister all have university degrees with all of my generation having as well.

From my mother family it took a little longer. My grandfather was a construction worker and my grandmother were a teacher. Both came to São Paulo (and moved back and forth to Bahia) and had 7 son, that my grandfather never left fear for lack of food and demanded they studied (although most of them wanted to work as early as 12). My mother and aunt finished high school and later university while another aunt made high school through those 3 months courses. the other, 2 finished high school and 2 only basic school (they hated studying... but have done entrepreneur study later on, and also construction classes). Still all my generation on this side as well have university concluded.

That is the only path forward for a family (which left wing in Brazil try to destroy, the family bounds that make father and mother invest in their children and help them move forward and achieve what they couldn't because they had to sacrifice for them) it's cumulative effort and I won't accept any system that make light of the sacrifice they done to give me a better situation than they have and try to blame the ones that inherited that sacrifice because of those that din't.... I have seem to many people that prefer to party instead of study and them blame others for theirs failures.

VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

Necessitating a car doesn't mean a 15k USD car, there are plenty of 500 USD cars.

For every barrier you or socialism think and that the government feel they'll need to intervene, capitalism and entrepreneur find an alternative for the problem and solve it. The government just end up putting more barriers, and people saying others can't thrive without their help or intervention just do those people a disfavor.

"The government" did you read my OP?

Yes I read... and did you read what I wrote? Because all you have done in the examples is trying to put barriers on what people can achieve because of the "evil capitalism", while saying all cases that people won despise the supposed barriers doesn't count.

Still waiting for why someone need a 15k car instead of a 500 (if he really needs a car), how is it impossible for a group of 10 people to put together 10k to start a business (even if evidence show that a lot of people start their own business with very little money). The truth is that the easiest way is to accept a wage and work for someone that is taking the risk and profiting with it.

ArchangelMadzz said:
VGPolyglot said:

Social democracy.

Thanks.

Saeko said:

We have all that in switzerland, even if the country is very liberal, is a Direct democracy here.

And we start making test soon on RBI in a few town/city.

Yeah we have that here in the UK too which I'm very happy about. 

I hate the idea that someone gets a serious illness and they have to worry about debt from healthcare bills. 

But do you like the idea that the government will take money from everyone to give it to possible ones that didn't make their own plans, savings, etc?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

donathos said: 


Socialism (in whatever guise) requires people to act, not out of their own individual interest, but for the good of the state, or society, or the community, etc. 

This is actually a false premise. Many socialists are/ were strong individualists. Egoist communism, based on the theories of Max Stirner is a thing. 

Usually the argument is that social cooperation benefits the individual, as there are many interests which overlap. 

In so much that interests don't overlap nobody should be forced into a social institution or contract.