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Reported hijab attack on an 11-year-old girl did not happen - Fake News?

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vivster said:
Seventizz said:

Google Bill M103.

"Condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination" seems like a pretty moderate thing to do. I think some people forget that there is such a thing as context and moderation when it comes to rules, morals and laws.

There is a difference between running over a kitten by accident because it jumped in front of your car and boldly proclaiming on a public platform to start the kitten holocaust. Just because the latter person will go to jail doesn't mean the former will.

Context and intent. Those words are pretty important in law and general social behavior. If you look those up it might relieve your fears of persecution a bit.

While I agree on the context, intent and moderation, there's few problems: I find it unbelievable that a modern society would still make blasphemy laws (then again, this is Americas we're talking about, which is much more religious than Europe). If we make "one type of discrimination" illegal, why don't we make all discrimination illegal, so that everyone would be happy and equal. Also, the definions used for what is "islamophobia", for example, is very important: real-life examples show us, that if an imaam want's death to western society, it is not considered hate speech, but condemning the imaam is considered islamophobia, or wanting death to the imaam who want's you dead is considered hate speech.

Strictly speaking of "phobia", what next the want illegal? Fear of the dark? Snakes? Spiders? 

vivster said:
Seventizz said:

I’m going to assume you’re not a Canadian and this is the first time you’ve stumbled upon this bill and have put little thought into your reasoning.  You’re not alone - it’s what liberals do.

I live in Germany, which is one of the most liberal and leftist countries you can be in. Yes even more leftist than Canada. That bill is nothing compared to what is already law in Germany. I haven't seen anyone go to jail yet for simply stating an opinion. I've seen plenty of blatant racists being charged, though. So the laws work as intended.

You haven't yet explained yourself and just said I should google something instead of explaining your point. But don't worry, you're not alone - it's what right wing extremists do.

You know you're liberal when the left hates you as much as the right does.

Germany is on the left so far. The more right wing immigrants there's coming, the more on the right the country will turn to.

How many of those blatant racists get charged in Germany? Is it that if you're certain ethnicity or religion, you can get away for doing the same thing that others can't?



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bdbdbd said:
vivster said:

I live in Germany, which is one of the most liberal and leftist countries you can be in. Yes even more leftist than Canada. That bill is nothing compared to what is already law in Germany. I haven't seen anyone go to jail yet for simply stating an opinion. I've seen plenty of blatant racists being charged, though. So the laws work as intended.

You haven't yet explained yourself and just said I should google something instead of explaining your point. But don't worry, you're not alone - it's what right wing extremists do.

You know you're liberal when the left hates you as much as the right does.

Germany is on the left so far. The more right wing immigrants there's coming, the more on the right the country will turn to.

How many of those blatant racists get charged in Germany? Is it that if you're certain ethnicity or religion, you can get away for doing the same thing that others can't?

Imams who preach hate are charged the same way as neonazis that preach their hate if that's what you mean.

But as an extremely left country there are of course some "injustices". A certain religion is basically untouchable while other religions also have to be treated very delicately. There are a number of touchy subjects.

In the end it comes down to the fact that Germany is an actual democracy, which means the government is actually governed by the people. It's the German people that are historically extremely left leaning, at least since WW2 and the fall of the Berlin Wall. The government isn't doing anything the majority of the people disagrees on. So the laws that are passed are accepted. I don't think tolerance in this country is perfectly balanced but what I can say for certain is that in this country we value freedom of speech. To actually get into trouble you would have to do a really stupid thing. No one will get jailed or even charged for minor disagreements, even in very sensitive topics.

Again, it's all about context and intent.



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vivster said:
bdbdbd said:

You know you're liberal when the left hates you as much as the right does.

Germany is on the left so far. The more right wing immigrants there's coming, the more on the right the country will turn to.

How many of those blatant racists get charged in Germany? Is it that if you're certain ethnicity or religion, you can get away for doing the same thing that others can't?

Imams who preach hate are charged the same way as neonazis that preach their hate if that's what you mean.

But as an extremely left country there are of course some "injustices". A certain religion is basically untouchable while other religions also have to be treated very delicately. There are a number of touchy subjects.

In the end it comes down to the fact that Germany is an actual democracy, which means the government is actually governed by the people. It's the German people that are historically extremely left leaning, at least since WW2 and the fall of the Berlin Wall. The government isn't doing anything the majority of the people disagrees on. So the laws that are passed are accepted. I don't think tolerance in this country is perfectly balanced but what I can say for certain is that in this country we value freedom of speech. To actually get into trouble you would have to do a really stupid thing. No one will get jailed or even charged for minor disagreements, even in very sensitive topics.

Again, it's all about context and intent.

That's what I was meaning. It appears to be a little different here, where you sell your old BMW's and Mercedes's.

Well, touchy religion really is a problem in a country that's supposed to be "on the left", as you might expect religions being commonly made fun of. The higher position religion holds in a society, the more it's on the right. 

Extremely left leaning. You must confuse this with DDR (and NSDAP). I believe traditionally Germany has been on the center, and I think that the last decade it's been more center-right, much like UK.

So, how about major disagreements? Thinking that you get jailed for a disagreement sounds quite harsh. Then again, if Germany really is extremely left-leaning, as you say it is, then I can understand jailing people with wrong opinions. 



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bdbdbd said:
vivster said:

Imams who preach hate are charged the same way as neonazis that preach their hate if that's what you mean.

But as an extremely left country there are of course some "injustices". A certain religion is basically untouchable while other religions also have to be treated very delicately. There are a number of touchy subjects.

In the end it comes down to the fact that Germany is an actual democracy, which means the government is actually governed by the people. It's the German people that are historically extremely left leaning, at least since WW2 and the fall of the Berlin Wall. The government isn't doing anything the majority of the people disagrees on. So the laws that are passed are accepted. I don't think tolerance in this country is perfectly balanced but what I can say for certain is that in this country we value freedom of speech. To actually get into trouble you would have to do a really stupid thing. No one will get jailed or even charged for minor disagreements, even in very sensitive topics.

Again, it's all about context and intent.

That's what I was meaning. It appears to be a little different here, where you sell your old BMW's and Mercedes's.

Well, touchy religion really is a problem in a country that's supposed to be "on the left", as you might expect religions being commonly made fun of. The higher position religion holds in a society, the more it's on the right. 

Extremely left leaning. You must confuse this with DDR (and NSDAP). I believe traditionally Germany has been on the center, and I think that the last decade it's been more center-right, much like UK.

So, how about major disagreements? Thinking that you get jailed for a disagreement sounds quite harsh. Then again, if Germany really is extremely left-leaning, as you say it is, then I can understand jailing people with wrong opinions. 

Germany is very left leaning. It has one of the most robust social systems in the world and maybe the most liberal immigration policy. Laws against discrimination and many many social programs for integration.

It's not so much that religion is important in this country, it really is not. For all intents and purposes you could call this country as an atheist country if you discount religious immigrants. The problem is Germany's history. The extreme move to the left was an explosive reaction to the past. It's basically not about what is right or good or moderate. It's all about to be as far away from nazism as possible. Religious and racial persecution was one of the main things of Nazi Germany, so naturally, modern Germany's goal is to be the exact opposite. Which means absolute protection of religion and social and racial differences.

Religions and races aren't so much "cherished" as they are used to build an image that is opposite to Germany's image of the past. Add to that the German reunification where the GDR, an extremely left leaning entity, was completely incorporated. All that is ingrained into the German mind now. Germany is and wants to be seen as an extremely socially minded and tolerant country. It isn't a bad thing but in some places it goes a bit too far in my opinion.

A moderate socially minded German voter would probably fall under the category of Marxist in a country like the US, while the extreme right of Germany would fit quite well into the more right wing and conservative part of the Republican party. I would consider myself pretty centric so as a result I would never vote for the left in Germany and also would never vote for the right in the US. Everything is shifted a bit between countries.

Some foreign publications want to build the narrative that Germany has become more right leaning due to the influx of immigrants but that is just false. While there was a new party on the extreme right that gained a bunch of popularity thanks to the immigrant "crisis", we just had a federal election and despite good poll numbers they were shut down. They landed at a mere 12%. Speaking of Germany as a majorly right leaning country is just false. And while the CDU has been the strongest party for a decade and is considered to be the moderate right and conservative party they're nothing more than a figurehead for the majorly left leaning population. I mean Merkel is basically hated by far right groups for the extremely liberal immigration policy. Merkel herself was born and raised in the GDR so she is basically a beacon for leftists at the head of a right leaning conservative party^^

And even after all that free speech is alive and well in Germany. Comedians and news outlets are free. There was a very famous case of a German Comedian ridiculing the Turkish Prime minister. And despite outrage from Turkey and the sizeable Turkish population in Germany, that comedian had the full backing of the government. No charges, no informal reprimands, nothing.

Last edited by vivster - on 16 January 2018

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Puppyroach said:
Aeolus451 said:

First of all, it was the news or Hillary that first start using that term. I think that it was right after the election when they tried to say trump won because of "fake news" being circulated on facebook. A lot of the right thought that the term was ironic. The news doesn't like the term so much now.

The issue is that the story became international news overnight without them checking into it. They're too invested in this little war of theirs and it's making them look stupid.

I know, therefore I used the sentence "mostly used by an orange president". Just because Clinton started using the term doesn't make it more valid or less connected to Trump and the way he uses it.

What "war" are they invested in? What is the basis for the assumption that media in general jumps unto false stories just because the involve Muslims? 

If you don't know the answers to those questions then you're really out of touch with politics for the last few years.



bdbdbd said:
Aeolus451 said:

First of all, it was the news or Hillary that first start using that term. I think that it was right after the election when they tried to say trump won because of "fake news" being circulated on facebook. A lot of the right thought that the term was ironic. The news doesn't like the term so much now.

The issue is that the story became international news overnight without them checking into it. They're too invested in this little war of theirs and it's making them look stupid.

And ironically the media itself seems to be using the term every now and then. The truth doesn't really matter for the media, as long as the story itself fits their narrative.

By the way, if a 80's kid jumped to a modern day, they'd be amazed how many ninjas you can see in the modern street image. 

Exactly. All we need now to complete it is ninja mutant turtles. Do you think that bamn chick would be a modern day shredder?



Another one, great.

fakehatecrimes.org



vivster said:
bdbdbd said:

That's what I was meaning. It appears to be a little different here, where you sell your old BMW's and Mercedes's.

Well, touchy religion really is a problem in a country that's supposed to be "on the left", as you might expect religions being commonly made fun of. The higher position religion holds in a society, the more it's on the right. 

Extremely left leaning. You must confuse this with DDR (and NSDAP). I believe traditionally Germany has been on the center, and I think that the last decade it's been more center-right, much like UK.

So, how about major disagreements? Thinking that you get jailed for a disagreement sounds quite harsh. Then again, if Germany really is extremely left-leaning, as you say it is, then I can understand jailing people with wrong opinions. 

Germany is very left leaning. It has one of the most robust social systems in the world and maybe the most liberal immigration policy. Laws against discrimination and many many social programs for integration.

It's not so much that religion is important in this country, it really is not. For all intents and purposes you could call this country as an atheist country if you discount religious immigrants. The problem is Germany's history. The extreme move to the left was an explosive reaction to the past. It's basically not about what is right or good or moderate. It's all about to be as far away from nazism as possible. Religious and racial persecution was one of the main things of Nazi Germany, so naturally, modern Germany's goal is to be the exact opposite. Which means absolute protection of religion and social and racial differences.

Religions and races aren't so much "cherished" as they are used to build an image that is opposite to Germany's image of the past. Add to that the German reunification where the GDR, an extremely left leaning entity, was completely incorporated. All that is ingrained into the German mind now. Germany is and wants to be seen as an extremely socially minded and tolerant country. It isn't a bad thing but in some places it goes a bit too far in my opinion.

A moderate socially minded German voter would probably fall under the category of Marxist in a country like the US, while the extreme right of Germany would fit quite well into the more right wing and conservative part of the Republican party. I would consider myself pretty centric so as a result I would never vote for the left in Germany and also would never vote for the right in the US. Everything is shifted a bit between countries.

Some foreign publications want to build the narrative that Germany has become more right leaning due to the influx of immigrants but that is just false. While there was a new party on the extreme right that gained a bunch of popularity thanks to the immigrant "crisis", we just had a federal election and despite good poll numbers they were shut down. They landed at a mere 12%. Speaking of Germany as a majorly right leaning country is just false. And while the CDU has been the strongest party for a decade and is considered to be the moderate right and conservative party they're nothing more than a figurehead for the majorly left leaning population. I mean Merkel is basically hated by far right groups for the extremely liberal immigration policy. Merkel herself was born and raised in the GDR so she is basically a beacon for leftists at the head of a right leaning conservative party^^

And even after all that free speech is alive and well in Germany. Comedians and news outlets are free. There was a very famous case of a German Comedian ridiculing the Turkish Prime minister. And despite outrage from Turkey and the sizeable Turkish population in Germany, that comedian had the full backing of the government. No charges, no informal reprimands, nothing.

I do understand that the government doesn't fully represent where the people stand politically. But I mean saying people lean left, when they actually keep voting for the right, doesn't just feel right. I do think that the immigration crisis of recent years hurt CDU's and Merkel's recent popularity. Far right and far left are mostly marginal anyway, and I'd say the far left hates Merkel for her nationalistic policies, where the far right hates her immigration policy.

I think it's really hard to say that people are on the left and try to be as far from national socialism as possible, as the NSDAP (national socialistic workers party) was a left-wing party with a racial twist (well, typical left these days).

Demolishing religions, not to protect them is a goal for the left! This is why the far left governments make religions illegal (although, the leaders make themselves godly figures).

Maybe Merkel is the face of former DDR and people with same origins (although Merkel was born in Hamburg) keep voting for her, for not to get Germany to what DDR was. I don't know. From my point of view Merkel seems to be doing the excact opposite to what DDR was.

It it one thing to make fun of politicians of a foreign country than people of your own country. Then again, it is hard to make jokes about about Islam for example when you don't know much about it, and neither does your audience.



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Aeolus451 said:
bdbdbd said:

And ironically the media itself seems to be using the term every now and then. The truth doesn't really matter for the media, as long as the story itself fits their narrative.

By the way, if a 80's kid jumped to a modern day, they'd be amazed how many ninjas you can see in the modern street image. 

Exactly. All we need now to complete it is ninja mutant turtles. Do you think that bamn chick would be a modern day shredder?

BAMN was a new one to me. Well, no doubt it would be.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.