Tulipanzo said:
KLAMarine said:
1 Almost. That's the key word here. She almost did only to win against what should have been more agile and capable spacecraft seeing as how they're smaller.
2 I don't see how such a denial is gonna impede her ability to get things done or win in fights.
3 Did either of the three dislike her though?
4 Okay, no. That's nonsense.
Here's the end result of the first time Luke faced Darth Vader:
Luke was left hanging from an antenna, was missing a hand, and was in dire need of rescue.
Here's the end result of the first time Rey faced Kylo Ren:
She won.
So no, the two aren't comparable.
5 Rey was overly competent.
6 I'm going to keep using it because it's short and to the point. If you don't like the adjective then how about this:
Rey is a Mary Sue overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.
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This is way too much of a quotefest jeez, but quick round-up
1) Crashing the Falcon would end the movie, and by Star Wars logic competence with a flying vehicle is competence with any flying vehicle (see Luke and X-Wings) and we know she has flown:
"I've flown some ships, but I've never left the planet" + She shows repeated familiarity with the Falcon's history and interior, suggesting she knows enough about it to fly it, if she hasn't flown it already ("That one is garbage")
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Did the Falcon crash? No. Okay, I can buy that.
What I cannot buy is that the Falcon would be able to outmaneuver multiple fighters considering its larger relative mass. That's like a cargo van outmaneuvering a race car or a B28 bomber outmaneuvering a fighter.
The Falcon was meant for smuggling, not maneuvering but in the hands of Rey, it can do anything.
Tulipanzo said:
2) "Mary Sue" delineates a near flawless character, but she's shown to have huge baggage and character flaws, unrelated btw to the larger Star Wars character roster. I.E. her past is not a way for her to perfectly fit in pre-existing story-lines, which is what the original Mary Sue point in fanfiction was about.
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Like I said, if you don't like the adjective then Rey is overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.
Tulipanzo said:
3) Yes, Luke and Han (at least initially). Can you read?
She's the hero, so characters ultimately trusting her, especially as she is a Force user and interested in joining the Resistance, just makes sense.
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Are you suggesting that in the act of liking/trusting Rey, the other characters break the fourth wall?
Tulipanzo said:
The main cast has no reason to dislike her, so why exactly would they?!
As a meta point, she clearly represents the bright-eyed optimism of Star Wars fandom, so the main cast ultimately disliking her would kind of make the point that liking Star Wars is wrong, which is just baffling!
It seems you want the main cast to dislike her because you do..
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I'm expecting the cast to be neutral to her, not to dislike her much like how to Han, Luke was just talking cargo and to Leia, Luke was a means to escape. Even after all was said and done near the end of ANH, Han wanted to leave and Leia was getting back to work fighting the Empire. All Luke's connections got him was joining with other X-Wing fighters in a daring attack on the Death Star.
Compare that to Finn who devoted himself to Rey or Rey getting a critical lone mission to find Luke. Rather than the rebels sending a delegation to meet Luke in this vital mission, they send a newcomer on her own. Compare that to Kylo who is trying to recruit her to his side. Vader was aiming to kill Luke in ANH.
Tulipanzo said:
4) Are you suggesting a wounded Kylo Ren is as strong as Darth Vader? lol
Excusing that pile of nonsense, Kylo, who is bleeding out from both a gunshot to the stomach and a slash from Finn, is shown troughout to be the superior fighter. Rey barely manages to get a "win" over him by using the Force. A reminder that Kylo is trying to turn her to the Dark Side, not to kill her.
The movie is quite clear in showing that Kylo is stronger, and that the real fight isn't over yet. Like TFA will get sequels or something.
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No, I'm suggesting a wounded Kylo Ren should be able to at least render helpless a novice Rey who just recently discovered the force and just recently wielded a saber. Instead, she wins and the tension in the scene is destroyed. Kylo Ren's threat level is destroyed. I'm not invested anymore because Rey just keeps showing she always comes out on top no matter the circumstance.
Is it so much to ask for that the protagonist get his/her ass kicked a bit and lose here and there much like with Luke? Give the opposition a bit of a threat level rather than removing it.
Tulipanzo said:
5) Ah, you really showed me here
6) The point isn't that I don't like the term, but that stupid people tend to like it a lot.
Ergo, using the term makes you look really, really stupid.
Go on though, just saves me the trouble of taking you seriously
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Rey is overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed. How's that?
This bears repeating btw:
I think there's an angle you're not seeing here. I'm sure you could provide reasons as to why Rey always seems to have the upper hand in whatever situation she finds herself but this doesn't change the fact that she always has an upper hand. No feat seems impossible to her.
This is a problem for storytelling: things like building tension and helping the viewer to suspend their disbelief are done by not only making a character believable but also making the antagonist threatening. Rey being good at so many things at some point becomes unbelievable.
I think everyone here would agree that they're good at some things and bad at other things. I'm good at math and science but I'm terrible at reading Shakespeare. That stuff is not modern-day English. Even people really good at one thing are not so good at another: Michael Jordan was a great basketball player but a mediocre baseball player.
Being able to fix things, speak droid, fight well, and even overcome Kylo's mind probe and turn it against him runs counter to building tension because at some point, I just expect Rey to always win. Rey being good at everything isn't gonna make me wonder if she'll be able to overcome the next obstacle, I'll just get used to expecting it.
That's boring: tension dies and suspension of disbelief is shattered. It's what happens when you turn on god mode in a game: fun at first but it gets boring quickly. Without risk, where's the fun? Where's the challenge? Would a game that was won by pressing a 'press to win' button be fun?
No, it wouldn't be fun.
To add to all this, this latest Star Wars trilogy does not exist in a vacuum and neither does Rey's character: Luke Skywalker exists in this universe and he had to get his ass kicked before becoming the capable Luke Skywalker in episode 6. He got his ass handed to him by cantina thugs, tusken raiders, Darth Vader, and even the emperor rendered him helpless with lightning.
Thankfully for Luke, he had people to help him: Obi-Wan rescued him from cantina thugs and tusken raiders, R2 and 3PO saved him from getting squashed, Han Solo saved him from getting shot down in ANH and freezing to death in ESB, Leia saved him when he was close to plunging to his death in ESB, Darth Vader saved him from the emperor in RotJ.
Rey saved herself when in the same film, Poe needed help from Finn and Finn needed help from Rey. Doesn't seem terribly balanced.
