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Is Rey from Star Wars a Mary Sue?

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superchunk said:
KLAMarine said:

Yes.

She's a good fighter, she's a good mechanic, she can understand droid, she can pilot the Falcon and knows it better than Han for f***'s sake, she can use the force and overcomes Kylo Ren's mind powers for f***'s sake. She's a good shot, Han likes her, Leia likes her, Finn likes her, BB8 likes her, even Kylo f***ing Ren starts to like her and she's trusted with a mission to find Luke after barely getting to know the rebellion or whatever they're called.

Poe needs rescue from the empire or whatever it's called and Finn rescues him. Finn needs rescue from tentacles and Rey rescues him. Rey needs rescue from capture and she rescues herself.

The most I can say is she's momentarily disabled by being thrown at a tree by Kylo Ren only to get back up and beat Kylo Ren in a laser sword battle...

 

I can't see how she's not a Mary Sue.

 

On a side note, why does Rey give a s*** about the conflict between the rebellion and the empire? What's her motivation and what's stopping her from just going back to... desert planet... and waiting for her parents like before? She sort of just meanders through the plot if memory serves.

Let's start with an actual definition. For simplicity, I'm using Wiki's.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly."

So taking what you stated in the opening post, yes that view point does fit this definition. However, is your opening statement valid or bias?

1. fighter, mechanic, speak droid, pilot falcon (better than Han).

She was orphaned on a Jakku as a very young child under the ownership of junk dealer. While its not spelled out fully in the movie, its not too hard to envision what her life would have been like. She clearly would have had a hard life and would have required to either learn how to take care of herself or be taken advantage of always. Considering when we see her she is clearly healthy, agile, able to fight, and defend herself I posit that it is obvious this life taught her how to fight. Additionally, as proven in other movies, young force wielders will use force to assist them without their knowledge. Surely this has helped her reflexes and responses as well.

Being owned by a junk dealer it's also pretty obvious that, similar to Anakin, this life allowed her time to really get to know how to be a mechanic. Clearly that is her saving grace as she uses those skills to survive. She knows technology and can repair it successfully to remain healthy as demonstrated pretty clearly in TFA.

Speaking droid. Why is this some kind of oddity? It seems pretty obvious that interacting with droids is pretty common place in SW universe. Given her life in Jakku as such, I don't see how it could be perceived she wouldn't have learned how to interact with several 'languages'. Similar to Europeans. 

The Falcon was owned by her owner. She knew it was an old "junk" ship and clearly along with her already demonstrated mechanical skills, she was able to recognize what was good/bad about it. Given that every single other major character in SW easily flies any ship, I don't think its hard to conclude she could as well with her past. I also don't see how you can conclude she understands the Falcon better than Han. She did not do anything as a pilot or mechanic better than he did. She did repeat or acknowledge issues that he also knew and that was about it.

Fact is, her very hard life as a junk shop owner's property easily explains all the four topics. Problem is the movie couldn't go into detail as it has to expect the viewer can infer this info out of what it does show. This is no different than Luke actually. 

2. Force use better than Kylo.

That's complete BS and its so annoying how people keep repeating this. Its like you all don't actually pay attention to what's going on in the movie. Kylo Ren is very powerful in the Force. There is no question about that. However, he wasn't a master. He was still being trained. He also, like Anakin and Luke, was significantly mentally and emotionally fucked up. She also is clearly very powerful. Very likely as much as Kylo, just untrained and hasn't really figured it out yet. He clearly overwhelms her without any effort on Takodana. Then he peaks into her mind and realizes that she is very powerful. This actually startled him as he wasn't expecting it and his own narrative to Snoke states this exactly. She also was just told pretty much the same stuff Anakin and Luke were told when they were first starting to interact with the Force and as he is once again peering into her mind. So her ability to recognize that and sort of use it, is more like raw talent some people have for music / art / etc than it is miraculous as some of you preach.

Using the Force requires mind control and emotional stability. At the end of the movie Kylo is anything but stable. He's critically hurt but is using his own power to keep himself going as well as emotionally fucked and no where near stable due to just murdering his father. Which he was deeply struggling with and conflicted about. This is the ONLY reason why she was able to get a lucky hit and best him. Re-watch the ending. She did not demonstrate she was better. She was knocked out early, came out and barely defended herself until she had her own moment of quality similar to the few moments Luke did well during his first fight with Vader. (even though Vader was mostly toying with him in these scenes) 

In TLJ she had now been working with Luke and had been focused on bettering her already good skills with staffs etc that translate well to light saber. She also had focused a lot on basic Force controls. Yet she still had nothing on anyone in Snokes chamber. The only amazing Force moves here were Snoke and Kylo. Though she handled herself nicely in fighting which makes sense due to her life and defined skill set in TFA.

3. Folks like her. 

Umm so what? People liked Anakin, Luke, etc. She's a nice person and passionate about helping. People liked and quickly started to follow Jyn Erso relatively quickly as well for similar reasons. Like it or not, she is a hero of this trilogy and is being characterized as such. No different than any other hero character.

4. Summary

She is not a Mary Sue. She is not "seemingly perfect". She has failed many times and is not better in force/etc than obviously more advanced characters like Kylo. Her entire character makes sense when you get over petty bias' and pay attention to the deeper surrounding story. Her basic premise is no different than Anakin, Luke, Jyn, etc. 

5. My Rant.

My opinion is that folks will always bitch about SW when its not molded to fit exactly like the original trilogy. Any creativity to open up the universe more is met with crazy fanaticism because the movie didn't fit their personal ideas of what SW is supposed to be like. We all envisioned what young Anakin/Vader would be and couldn't accept anything different. We all envisioned what Master Luke would be like post RofJ and anything different has to be wrong and horrible. All the while completely ignoring any story plot issues, stupid jokes, and meh characterization present in the original trilogy.

SW is arguably the best saga ever created. Enjoy it instead of trying to force it to fit your personal bias.

It would be interesting to read about that many times she failed.



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superchunk said:
KLAMarine said:

Yes.

She's a good fighter, she's a good mechanic, she can understand droid, she can pilot the Falcon and knows it better than Han for f***'s sake, she can use the force and overcomes Kylo Ren's mind powers for f***'s sake. She's a good shot, Han likes her, Leia likes her, Finn likes her, BB8 likes her, even Kylo f***ing Ren starts to like her and she's trusted with a mission to find Luke after barely getting to know the rebellion or whatever they're called.

Poe needs rescue from the empire or whatever it's called and Finn rescues him. Finn needs rescue from tentacles and Rey rescues him. Rey needs rescue from capture and she rescues herself.

The most I can say is she's momentarily disabled by being thrown at a tree by Kylo Ren only to get back up and beat Kylo Ren in a laser sword battle...

 

I can't see how she's not a Mary Sue.

 

On a side note, why does Rey give a s*** about the conflict between the rebellion and the empire? What's her motivation and what's stopping her from just going back to... desert planet... and waiting for her parents like before? She sort of just meanders through the plot if memory serves.

Let's start with an actual definition. For simplicity, I'm using Wiki's.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Marty Sue or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly."

So taking what you stated in the opening post, yes that view point does fit this definition. However, is your opening statement valid or bias?

1. fighter, mechanic, speak droid, pilot falcon (better than Han).

She was orphaned on a Jakku as a very young child under the ownership of junk dealer. While its not spelled out fully in the movie, its not too hard to envision what her life would have been like. She clearly would have had a hard life and would have required to either learn how to take care of herself or be taken advantage of always. Considering when we see her she is clearly healthy, agile, able to fight, and defend herself I posit that it is obvious this life taught her how to fight. Additionally, as proven in other movies, young force wielders will use force to assist them without their knowledge. Surely this has helped her reflexes and responses as well.

Being owned by a junk dealer it's also pretty obvious that, similar to Anakin, this life allowed her time to really get to know how to be a mechanic. Clearly that is her saving grace as she uses those skills to survive. She knows technology and can repair it successfully to remain healthy as demonstrated pretty clearly in TFA.

Speaking droid. Why is this some kind of oddity? It seems pretty obvious that interacting with droids is pretty common place in SW universe. Given her life in Jakku as such, I don't see how it could be perceived she wouldn't have learned how to interact with several 'languages'. Similar to Europeans. 

The Falcon was owned by her owner. She knew it was an old "junk" ship and clearly along with her already demonstrated mechanical skills, she was able to recognize what was good/bad about it. Given that every single other major character in SW easily flies any ship, I don't think its hard to conclude she could as well with her past. I also don't see how you can conclude she understands the Falcon better than Han. She did not do anything as a pilot or mechanic better than he did. She did repeat or acknowledge issues that he also knew and that was about it.

Fact is, her very hard life as a junk shop owner's property easily explains all the four topics. Problem is the movie couldn't go into detail as it has to expect the viewer can infer this info out of what it does show. This is no different than Luke actually. 

2. Force use better than Kylo.

That's complete BS and its so annoying how people keep repeating this. Its like you all don't actually pay attention to what's going on in the movie. Kylo Ren is very powerful in the Force. There is no question about that. However, he wasn't a master. He was still being trained. He also, like Anakin and Luke, was significantly mentally and emotionally fucked up. She also is clearly very powerful. Very likely as much as Kylo, just untrained and hasn't really figured it out yet. He clearly overwhelms her without any effort on Takodana. Then he peaks into her mind and realizes that she is very powerful. This actually startled him as he wasn't expecting it and his own narrative to Snoke states this exactly. She also was just told pretty much the same stuff Anakin and Luke were told when they were first starting to interact with the Force and as he is once again peering into her mind. So her ability to recognize that and sort of use it, is more like raw talent some people have for music / art / etc than it is miraculous as some of you preach.

Using the Force requires mind control and emotional stability. At the end of the movie Kylo is anything but stable. He's critically hurt but is using his own power to keep himself going as well as emotionally fucked and no where near stable due to just murdering his father. Which he was deeply struggling with and conflicted about. This is the ONLY reason why she was able to get a lucky hit and best him. Re-watch the ending. She did not demonstrate she was better. She was knocked out early, came out and barely defended herself until she had her own moment of quality similar to the few moments Luke did well during his first fight with Vader. (even though Vader was mostly toying with him in these scenes) 

In TLJ she had now been working with Luke and had been focused on bettering her already good skills with staffs etc that translate well to light saber. She also had focused a lot on basic Force controls. Yet she still had nothing on anyone in Snokes chamber. The only amazing Force moves here were Snoke and Kylo. Though she handled herself nicely in fighting which makes sense due to her life and defined skill set in TFA.

I think there's an angle you're not seeing here. I'm sure you could provide reasons as to why Rey always seems to have the upper hand in whatever situation she finds herself but this doesn't change the fact that she always has an upper hand. No feat seems impossible to her.

This is a problem for storytelling: things like building tension and helping the viewer to suspend their disbelief are done by not only making a character believable but also making the antagonist threatening. Rey being good at so many things at some point becomes unbelievable.

I think everyone here would agree that they're good at some things and bad at other things. I'm good at math and science but I'm terrible at reading Shakespeare. That stuff is not modern-day English. Even people really good at one thing are not so good at another: Michael Jordan was a great basketball player but a mediocre baseball player.

Being able to fix things, speak droid, fight well, and even overcome Kylo's mind probe and turn it against him runs counter to building tension because at some point, I just expect Rey to always win. Rey being good at everything isn't gonna make me wonder if she'll be able to overcome the next obstacle, I'll just get used to expecting it.

That's boring: tension dies and suspension of disbelief is shattered. It's what happens when you turn on god mode in a game: fun at first but it gets boring quickly. Without risk, where's the fun? Where's the challenge? Would a game that was won by pressing a 'press to win' button be fun?

No, it wouldn't be fun.

To add to all this, this latest Star Wars trilogy does not exist in a vacuum and neither does Rey's character: Luke Skywalker exists in this universe and he had to get his ass kicked before becoming the capable Luke Skywalker in episode 6. He got his ass handed to him by cantina thugs, tusken raiders, Darth Vader, and even the emperor rendered him helpless with lightning.

(Luke staring death in the face)

Thankfully for Luke, he had people to help him: Obi-Wan rescued him from cantina thugs and tusken raiders, R2 and 3PO saved him from getting squashed, Han Solo saved him from getting shot down in ANH and freezing to death in ESB, Leia saved him when he was close to plunging to his death in ESB, Darth Vader saved him from the emperor in RotJ.

Rey saved herself when in the same film, Poe needed help from Finn and Finn needed help from Rey. Doesn't seem terribly balanced.

superchunk said:

3. Folks like her. 

Umm so what? People liked Anakin, Luke, etc. She's a nice person and passionate about helping. People liked and quickly started to follow Jyn Erso relatively quickly as well for similar reasons. Like it or not, she is a hero of this trilogy and is being characterized as such. No different than any other hero character.

Fits part of the Mary Sue definition. People just quickly like her.

superchunk said:

4. Summary

She is not a Mary Sue. She is not "seemingly perfect". She has failed many times and is not better in force/etc than obviously more advanced characters like Kylo. Her entire character makes sense when you get over petty bias' and pay attention to the deeper surrounding story. Her basic premise is no different than Anakin, Luke, Jyn, etc. 

If you don't like the name "Mary Sue" then how about I just say her character sucks because she's overly capable?

superchunk said:

5. My Rant.

My opinion is that folks will always bitch about SW when its not molded to fit exactly like the original trilogy. Any creativity to open up the universe more is met with crazy fanaticism because the movie didn't fit their personal ideas of what SW is supposed to be like. We all envisioned what young Anakin/Vader would be and couldn't accept anything different. We all envisioned what Master Luke would be like post RofJ and anything different has to be wrong and horrible. All the while completely ignoring any story plot issues, stupid jokes, and meh characterization present in the original trilogy.

I'd agree that the original trilogy is not perfect: ewoks need to go die in a fire for example and the stormtroopers are in serious need of aim training but there's enough good in there for an enjoyable watch.

The latest trilogy is far too imperfect for an enjoyable watch as it has me rolling my eyes far too often.

superchunk said:

SW is arguably the best saga ever created. Enjoy it instead of trying to force it to fit your personal bias.

I try to enjoy Disney's SW offerings but I just can't. In TFA, Rey sucks as a character and the plot seems all too familiar. TLJ has stupid characters like purple hair who is in a dress rather than military uniform, Luke milking a giant space cow, silver stormtrooper is still shit, and a portion in Las Vegas that goes nowhere.

This new SW just isn't for me.



Of course she is. And people who desperately want to prove she isn't falls into two categories, either SJWs who have no argument, so just call the other side sexists, or those who exaggerate scenes or just plain make up stuff that weren't in the movies to show she isn't.

A key example is the fight with Kylo. A near Jedi who has had at least a decade of training, and on both sides, is easily beaten in battle and in using the Force by a character who received absolutely no training, nor know everything that you could do with the Force. What are the excuses? "Oh, but he's emotional, so that hurts his ability." Eerrrrrr, wrong. Nowhere in the film is this even hinted at. He is still very capable, even in the few scenes where he loses it. "Oh, but he got shot, which drastically hurt his abilities." Eerrrrrr, wrong, again. You go back and watch that scene, again, and I dare you to try to point out where it's affecting him. He's swinging his lightsaber perfectly fine, keeping up with Rey as she is jumping over rocks to avoid him. Nope, it's just at that point she becomes a near Jedi because the script needed her to. She even out mind reads him, not even knowing she can do that, and out Force pulls him, again, even though she doesn't know that she can do that with the Force.

Then, at the end of TLJ, without any actual training, can lift a ton of boulders without even breaking a sweat. Mary Sue to a tee.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 13 January 2018

BTW, those examples I gave, if you want to know how to do them competently, here goes.

First of all, Rey should not have got herself out of the restraints. You can have it where Kylo is having trouble seeing into her mind, but DON'T have her reverse the damn probe. Finn and Han should have been the ones who free her, and we see she is obviously exhausted from thwarting Kyle's probe. As for the Kylo fight, show him actually being affected by that blast to the gut. He's stumbling around, barely keeping up with Rey, while flailing his lightsaber wildly, with Rey still having some trouble blocking/parrying his blows. Maybe have her plead with him that she doesn't want to fight him in this state.

As for TLJ, Luke should have actually trained her. At the end, when she's outside the blocked path, she hears the Rebels frantically pleading for help. She concentrates extremely hard. The boulders begin to move slightly. Their cries for help echo in her head. She uses everything she has in her. She moves only half the boulders before she drops to her knees and then passes out, but it is enough that they can escape by crawling over the rest. Po and Finn quickly run to her limp body and carry her on board the MF.

Easy. No more MaRey Sue.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 13 January 2018

She's a strong independant woman that don't need no man. Seriously though I'm seeing so many people all over the internet talking about this with Rey, I think she's a decent character, I mean I can see why people would have problems with her when it comes to the question of this thread, but I guess these thing don't necessarily bother me.



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Pavolink said:

It would be interesting to read about that many times she failed.

Reys failures

She opens the wrong door and lets the Rathtars out, almost getting everyone killed

Shes the only person we see miss a shot with her blaster in TFA

She refuses the call, runs into the forest and loses/gets captured by Kylo

She “goes to the dark place” when reaching out to the force, which causes Luke to be reluctant to train her

She fails to convince Luke to join the cause

She fails to turn Kylo Ren which would have cost her life had Kylo not saved her.



superchunk said:
Pavolink said:

It would be interesting to read about that many times she failed.

Reys failures

She opens the wrong door and lets the Rathtars out, almost getting everyone killed

Shes the only person we see miss a shot with her blaster in TFA

She refuses the call, runs into the forest and loses/gets captured by Kylo

She “goes to the dark place” when reaching out to the force, which causes Luke to be reluctant to train her

She fails to convince Luke to join the cause

She fails to turn Kylo Ren which would have cost her life had Kylo not saved her.

What were the consecuences?



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Pavolink said:
superchunk said:

Reys failures

She opens the wrong door and lets the Rathtars out, almost getting everyone killed

Shes the only person we see miss a shot with her blaster in TFA

She refuses the call, runs into the forest and loses/gets captured by Kylo

She “goes to the dark place” when reaching out to the force, which causes Luke to be reluctant to train her

She fails to convince Luke to join the cause

She fails to turn Kylo Ren which would have cost her life had Kylo not saved her.

What were the consecuences?

Her consequences at this time are emotional, not physical. Yes Anakin and Luke both lost a hand by the second movie. But Anakin didn't really lose much else from his actions, just went through a massive emotional roller coaster which led him to the Dark Side. In this trilogy, the 'chosen one' is on a emotional wrecking train as well. From her parents to her role or purpose to her deep emotional feelings for Han and now Kylo... as well as the distress Luke put her through due to his own f'ed up mental state. This will come to the forefront in the last movie. Like Anakin and Luke in the 3rd movie, she will be pressed to the emotional breaking point and have to make a choice. This choice will focus (my theory) on her real parentage, Kylo, dark/light, and her friends. The sad thing is, is if she had lost a hand to someone in this movie we wouldn't me making this claim. Instead we'd have another set of forum goers talking about repeat of previous movies just as we did with TFA. This movie actually breaks the mold and people still find something to complain about... as my rant above its all about individual's perceived notions of what they think SW should be vs the more rational issues with all of the movies.

 

Quick List:

- lost her parents
- lost Han (who she had a odd bond)
- lost her home
- lost emotional state
- lost who she is / mental foundation
- lost Luke's (Anakin's) lightsaber
- lost Luke



The fact Rey faces no actual defeats againt Ren is why these movies box office and audience score is really starting to falter.

This is nowhere near as interesting as Luke and Vader.



I don't really think so but if we have to consider that she is Mary Sue then we have to consider that mainstream cinema is plenty of Marty Stus, but nobody ever complain nearly as much about those cause you know, they were men.