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Is Rey from Star Wars a Mary Sue?

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Aeolus451 said:
DonFerrari said:

Since you just posted some whole points from another place (the points were already even posted twice before, and debunked over also)... I'll just give you two very easy to verify points.

1) Pick any gun and shoot for the first time, count how many times you'll take to become any level of decent.

2) Pick a sword (can be a katana if you'll), go against a 95 year old, very weak 8th dan master and fight him... even though his health is the worse possible you won't even be able to hold the sword properly much less hit him. So the bleeding Kylo (that was funnily enough chasing her around and jumping through) would still beat her very easily.

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Seems like it, he put an internet definition to try to cover it, but kept the idea that is all sexism

Goodnightmoon said:
Aeolus451 said:

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.

Yes Mary Sue are women... Men are Gary Stu, your point?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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Goodnightmoon said:
Aeolus451 said:

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.





Good boy. At least I know you can use google but you still don't quite get them. Otherwise, you would see why she's a Mary Sue. Even Soundwave acknowledged that she is one and that her character doesn't make sense within the sw universe but he's fine with it. Why are you debating this still when you've been shown that you're wrong on this by more than a few people and you're resorting to calling us sexist when we're clearly not?



Goodnightmoon said:

To suggest Rey is an excessively idealized female character and she sucks for that but then to deny Neo, Harry Potter or James Bond are excessively idealized males characters already proves my point, most of this complainst have a base on pure sexism, with her people tries to find every single little detail of why she is a Mary Sue, with them everybody does the exact opposite, try to find every little detail to prove why they aren't Marty Stus even when they clearly are if we apply the same values for all cases.

I cannot comment on Neo since I'm not terribly familiar with Matrix. I saw the film ages ago and have forgotten most of it. I'm also not terribly familiar with James Bond.

Harry Potter, I've read the books and I will say IF Harry Potter had aced everything he went up against at Hogwarts and everyone loved him early on, I'd agree that he was a Gary Stu. He wasn't though. He wasn't the best at his subjects and not everyone liked him. Hermione was smarter and Snape hated him.

This is perfectly illustrated in the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6oMfkHviqE

Had he been absolutely knowledgeable at all his subjects from day one much like Rey was skilled in so many areas since day one, I would have agreed but Harry started from zero and worked his way up much like Luke and unlike Rey who just gets force powers out of the blue other characters had to work towards learning.

I'll also share with you someone who is regularly considered a Gary Stu:

Kirito from Sword Art Online. I watched a bit of SAO some time ago and recall him survive situations where countless others get destroyed. The following forum discusses him: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13322219670A23888900&page=21



Goodnightmoon said:

To suggest Rey is an excessively idealized female character and she sucks for that but then to deny Neo, Harry Potter or James Bond are excessively idealized males characters already proves my point, most of this complainst have a base on pure sexism, with her people tries to find every single little detail of why she is a Mary Sue, with them everybody does the exact opposite, try to find every little detail to prove why they aren't Marty Stus even when they clearly are if we apply the same values for all cases.

Also, I invite you to review a post, below, I made earlier in the thread on things like establishing a universe: Luke helped establish the Star Wars universe, Hit Girl helped establish the Kick Ass universe, Harry helped establish the rules in the HP universe.

Rey didn't establish the SW universe, she entered it and began breaking the rules such as one doesn't just attain force powers, they must be learned much like how Luke had to learn in training with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

KLAMarine said:
Goodnightmoon said:

I don't really think so but if we have to consider that she is Mary Sue then we have to consider that mainstream cinema is plenty of Marty Stus, but nobody ever complain nearly as much about those cause you know, they were men.

Or perhaps because these Marty Stus you speak of were not in the Star Wars universe but rather in their own universe with its own set of rules and their own CAPABLE antagonists who give the protagonist considerable difficulty.

You know who comes close to Mary Sueness? Hit Girl from the film Kick Ass: she defies odds and does things no kid her age should be able to do much like Rey does things with the force no newcomer should be able to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JfjO1PZxXc

One key difference?

Hit Girl gets rescued:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiuIU_88rNw

To add to that, Star Wars was always a franchise to be taken seriously while Kick Ass was more of a comedy-action type of film. The tones are different and the rules are different too: Luke helped establish the rules in the SW universe and in Kick Ass, Big Daddy helps establish the rules there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1E6GiB_BPU

 

I love Hit Girl and can't stand Rey in part because Hit Girl, even as ridiculous as the universe she is in can be, shows she's not untouchable and needs help in the end but Rey is always able to help herself when her predecessor, Luke, demonstrates several times that he too is in need of help. Help that was so vital, it saved his life.

 

To hell with Rey.



KLAMarine said:
Goodnightmoon said:

To suggest Rey is an excessively idealized female character and she sucks for that but then to deny Neo, Harry Potter or James Bond are excessively idealized males characters already proves my point, most of this complainst have a base on pure sexism, with her people tries to find every single little detail of why she is a Mary Sue, with them everybody does the exact opposite, try to find every little detail to prove why they aren't Marty Stus even when they clearly are if we apply the same values for all cases.

I cannot comment on Neo since I'm not terribly familiar with Matrix. I saw the film ages ago and have forgotten most of it. I'm also not terribly familiar with James Bond.

Harry Potter, I've read the books and I will say IF Harry Potter had aced everything he went up against at Hogwarts and everyone loved him early on, I'd agree that he was a Gary Stu. He wasn't though. He wasn't the best at his subjects and not everyone liked him. Hermione was smarter and Snape hated him.

This is perfectly illustrated in the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6oMfkHviqE

Had he been absolutely knowledgeable at all his subjects from day one much like Rey was skilled in so many areas since day one, I would have agreed but Harry started from zero and worked his way up much like Luke and unlike Rey who just gets force powers out of the blue other characters had to work towards learning.

I'll also share with you someone who is regularly considered a Gary Stu:

Kirito from Sword Art Online. I watched a bit of SAO some time ago and recall him survive situations where countless others get destroyed. The following forum discusses him: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13322219670A23888900&page=21

Yes, Kirito is also one. That sort of character is fairly normal in anime but they are much better written than they are in films or comics. 😎 One of the best examples of a Gary Stu is Superman. Another good example of a Mary Sue is Wonder woman from the new film.



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Goodnightmoon said:
Aeolus451 said:

I would bet a million dollars that he doesn't know what a Mary Sue even is or what sexist means cosidering how he's using the terms.

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.





You seem to like to ignore posts and arguments.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8678181

And as KLAMarine and Aeolus451 brought up again with Sword Art Online and Kirito. That GUY was called a Mary Sue by almost everyone (and not the male equivalent) because the male term is multiple like Marty, Gary, Larry etc. and thus less people will understand the term.



Aeolus451 said:
KLAMarine said:

I cannot comment on Neo since I'm not terribly familiar with Matrix. I saw the film ages ago and have forgotten most of it. I'm also not terribly familiar with James Bond.

Harry Potter, I've read the books and I will say IF Harry Potter had aced everything he went up against at Hogwarts and everyone loved him early on, I'd agree that he was a Gary Stu. He wasn't though. He wasn't the best at his subjects and not everyone liked him. Hermione was smarter and Snape hated him.

This is perfectly illustrated in the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6oMfkHviqE

Had he been absolutely knowledgeable at all his subjects from day one much like Rey was skilled in so many areas since day one, I would have agreed but Harry started from zero and worked his way up much like Luke and unlike Rey who just gets force powers out of the blue other characters had to work towards learning.

I'll also share with you someone who is regularly considered a Gary Stu:

Kirito from Sword Art Online. I watched a bit of SAO some time ago and recall him survive situations where countless others get destroyed. The following forum discusses him: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13322219670A23888900&page=21

Yes, Kirito is also one. That sort of character is fairly normal in anime but they are much better written than they are in films or comics. 😎 One of the best examples of a Gary Stu is Superman. Another good example of a Mary Sue is Wonder woman from the new film.

A lot of mangas/animes have Gary Stus, and in lot of them the secondary chars are almost as liked.

And most of the mangas that are very successful have chars that fight against the odds even when we know it is shonen so the protagonist will win in the end.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Aeolus451 said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Mary Sue: An excessively idealized woman character with no notable defects that gets all the attention of the story and is usually overpowered or more skilled than the rest of the characters, usually is an idealized alter-ego of the author which most of the times is a woman. When men characters follow this pattern they are called Marty Stus, a term that is almost never use for mysterious reasons that can be blamed on... Sexism: Discrimination based on a person sex or gender.





Good boy. At least I know you can use google but you still don't quite get them. Otherwise, you would see why she's a Mary Sue. Even Soundwave acknowledged that she is one and that her character doesn't make sense within the sw universe but he's fine with it. Why are you debating this still when you've been shown that you're wrong on this by more than a few people and you're resorting to calling us sexist when we're clearly not?

Cause that happened only in your head



It's like he was out to get himself permabanned.



Chrizum said:
It's like he was out to get himself permabanned.

Victim complex turned into desire to be a martyr.

The reason I felt the need to respond is I actually feel quite strongly about women's issues and sexism in society.  Part of that is seeing when it exists or not.  If the argument people were making was "I don't like Rey because she is a woman" then I would understand.  It wasn't, people were saying she wasn't appealing or unrelateable due to being so skilled and things coming so easy for her.

When people quickly go to "ists" in arguing against someone it reduces the impact of the word and its meaning.  If we are all sexists as he claims, that puts us on equal footing with people who have committed awful acts and undercuts the power of the word.  If I, someone who has worked for years on my own time supporting women who've been through hell, am sexist then the perception becomes it really isn't such a bad thing to be one.

I was trying to convey that if you see Rey and default to "woman" that is objectifying her more than "Character I dislike or take issue with".  Defining people into categories and segregating us is not the path I see forward.  My belief as a feminist is men are an ally because it is about creating the most equal society we can.  That means I respect members here more that respond to me no differently in a discussion than if my sex were male.