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Hollywood anti catholic bullshit needs to stop

Forums - Movies Discussion - Hollywood anti catholic bullshit needs to stop

o_O.Q said:

"The Catholic church as an organization has done some pretty horrific things. "

the catholic church did not create nuclear weapons... the scientific community did... and they are the greatest threat to mankind and i'd argue that they should never have been created

actually when it comes down to it - uranium depleted rounds, biological weapons, hollow points, pipe bombs, napalm etc etc etc who developed these threats to humanity? the church or the scientific community?

...okay?

I didn't come here to stack up the crimes of science against the crimes of the church, but let me explain why these are different.

There is no universal, top-down organizational structure in science that is comparable to the Catholic church, or any other similar organization. And that is ultimately what I have a problem with, certain organizational structures.

In many churches though, you have ordinarily decent people who will look the other way on crimes against children, because protecting the integrity of the church is seen as more important. Or you'll have ordinarily decent people treat blacks as second class citizens, or fight against equal rights. All until the guy at the top says it's okay to stop.

And it's not just churches, of course. You can have ordinarily good people conspire to hide information about how unsafe a sport is to protect the integrity and profitability of the sports league. Or, much like the Catholic Church, you can have good people look the other way on decades of sexual abuse to protect a college football program. You can have good, educated, college kids riot and turn over news vans rather than confronting the uncomfortable truth that their idol enabled child abuse. 

There is probably a discussion to be had about specific scientific projects; The Manhattan Project, for example. What compelled otherwise good people, to create a weapon of mass destruction? If they were fundamentally convinced that it was the right thing to do, as I think an argument can be made for, I don't have much of an issue. If they did it out of a sense of duty to their country, or simply because their boss told them too, that might be something to look into.

I am no more against people having a relationship with god than I am against people studying science. But organizations can be corrupted. And fealty to organizations can make people do horrible things. As we've seen above, it can happen in any organization, but it is particularly pernicious in certain churches. And for obvious reasons. God is everything, and the Church has a monopoly on God. 



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irstupid said:
jonager said:
Maybe they should stop raping kids? Surely hollywood will stop making fun of them then.

The whole pedophile thing with the Catholic church was like 10 years ago.

Hollywood right now is having an ongoing rape and abuse problem. They are hardly the ones that should be preaching.

Well in my country(Caribbean region) there have been cases of kids being raped by priests from time to time, and these are only the ones that make it ot the spotlight. So it hasn't stopped, any parent that that leaves his kid alone with a priest, pastor, reverent, rabbi  or iman should be dammed.



palou said:
o_O.Q said:

"The Catholic church as an organization has done some pretty horrific things. "

the catholic church did not create nuclear weapons... the scientific community did... and they are the greatest threat to mankind and i'd argue that they should never have been created

actually when it comes down to it - uranium depleted rounds, biological weapons, hollow points, pipe bombs, napalm etc etc etc who developed these threats to humanity? the church or the scientific community?

Those weapons have been created, but have barely been used. The atomic bomb, ironically, could in large part be responsible for why we did NOT have a direct war between any major powers in the last 70 years, even if the two largest powers hated each other with passion.

 

Wars were no less cruel, brutal before just because people used sticks and stones to murder each other.

 

When it comes down to it - who has reduced worldwide child mortality from 50 to 2 percent? Who’s made parasitical disease a thing of the past, turned the flue from a deadly disease to an annoying couple weeks in bed? Who has made food production so efficient that the *quantity* of food produced will never again be a problem? The church or the scientific community?

they are not the only weapons created by the scientific community for the lone purpose of killing though, millions die every year as a result of smaller scale weapons

 

"When it comes down to it - who has reduced worldwide child mortality from 50 to 2 percent? Who’s made parasitical disease a thing of the past, turned the flue from a deadly disease to an annoying couple weeks in bed? Who has made food production so efficient that the *quantity* of food produced will never again be a problem? The church or the scientific community?"

 

the scientific community... but if we wind up killing a whole bunch of other people through other means... can we concede that there are negative and positive aspects to it?

 

"Wars were no less cruel, brutal before just because people used sticks and stones to murder each other."

 

true but the consequences were less far reaching obviously... you can't compare a bomb leveling a whole area to someone throwing a stone



irstupid said:

The whole pedophile thing with the Catholic church was like 10 years ago.

Hollywood right now is having an ongoing rape and abuse problem. They are hardly the ones that should be preaching.

Hollywood is having it's own reckoning right now. And that's a fantastic thing. People are getting black balled and ousted left and right. 

But a filmmaker with a message shouldn't feel compelled not to spread their message just because Harvey Weinstein et al. are scumbags. I'm not even cosigning the particular message for the particular filmmaker here, but if OP wants all Catholic Priests to be judged on their own merit and not for something that some creeps did, maybe it's best not to judge all of Hollywood for a hammy message in a movie he just saw.



jonager said:

Well in my country(Caribbean region) there have been cases of kids being raped by priests from time to time, and these are only the ones that make it ot the spotlight. So it hasn't stopped, any parent that that leaves his kid alone with a priest, pastor, reverent, rabbi  or iman should be dammed.

This.

I am an ex Catholic, and I never really even got the impression that the Church took the scandal very seriously. 



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specialk said:
o_O.Q said:

"The Catholic church as an organization has done some pretty horrific things. "

the catholic church did not create nuclear weapons... the scientific community did... and they are the greatest threat to mankind and i'd argue that they should never have been created

actually when it comes down to it - uranium depleted rounds, biological weapons, hollow points, pipe bombs, napalm etc etc etc who developed these threats to humanity? the church or the scientific community?

...okay?

I didn't come here to stack up the crimes of science against the crimes of the church, but let me explain why these are different.

There is no universal, top-down organizational structure in science that is comparable to the Catholic church, or any other similar organization. And that is ultimately what I have a problem with, certain organizational structures.

In many churches though, you have ordinarily decent people who will look the other way on crimes against children, because protecting the integrity of the church is seen as more important. Or you'll have ordinarily decent people treat blacks as second class citizens, or fight against equal rights. All until the guy at the top says it's okay to stop.

And it's not just churches, of course. You can have ordinarily good people conspire to hide information about how unsafe a sport is to protect the integrity and profitability of the sports league. Or, much like the Catholic Church, you can have good people look the other way on decades of sexual abuse to protect a college football program. You can have good, educated, college kids riot and turn over news vans rather than confronting the uncomfortable truth that their idol enabled child abuse. 

There is probably a discussion to be had about specific scientific projects; The Manhattan Project, for example. What compelled otherwise good people, to create a weapon of mass destruction? If they were fundamentally convinced that it was the right thing to do, as I think an argument can be made for, I don't have much of an issue. If they did it out of a sense of duty to their country, or simply because their boss told them too, that might be something to look into.

I am no more against people having a relationship with god than I am against people studying science. But organizations can be corrupted. And fealty to organizations can make people do horrible things. As we've seen above, it can happen in any organization, but it is particularly pernicious in certain churches. And for obvious reasons. God is everything, and the Church has a monopoly on God. 

"I didn't come here to stack up the crimes of science against the crimes of the church"

but you should, science has a lot to answer for

 

"There is no universal, top-down organizational structure in science that is comparable to the Catholic church, or any other similar organization. And that is ultimately what I have a problem with, certain organizational structures."

there is some truth to that... but its not entirely true... have you ever heard of peer review?

 

"In many churches though, you have ordinarily decent people who will look the other way on crimes against children, because protecting the integrity of the church is seen as more important."

most americans think that the bombing of lybia for example was justified... the point i'm making here is that this is a characteristic that is present across all groups, not just religion

 

"There is probably a discussion to be had about specific scientific projects; The Manhattan Project, for example. What compelled otherwise good people, to create a weapon of mass destruction?"

exactly

 

"but it is particularly pernicious in certain churches. And for obvious reasons. God is everything, and the Church has a monopoly on God. "

this is where we disagree... i personally think this is characteristic of anyone who associates with a group... fanaticism to me is not something religious people have a monopoly on



The 'pastor raped kids' stories disappeared quite speedily once they realized that it were mostly homosexual pedophiles and the victims were boys - latest example would be Milo Yannopolis.



o_O.Q said:

"I didn't come here to stack up the crimes of science against the crimes of the church"

but you should, science has a lot to answer for *1

 

"There is no universal, top-down organizational structure in science that is comparable to the Catholic church, or any other similar organization. And that is ultimately what I have a problem with, certain organizational structures."

there is some truth to that... but its not entirely true... have you ever heard of peer review? *2

 

"In many churches though, you have ordinarily decent people who will look the other way on crimes against children, because protecting the integrity of the church is seen as more important."

most americans think that the bombing of lybia for example was justified... the point i'm making here is that this is a characteristic that is present across all groups, not just religion *3

 

"There is probably a discussion to be had about specific scientific projects; The Manhattan Project, for example. What compelled otherwise good people, to create a weapon of mass destruction?"

exactly

 

"but it is particularly pernicious in certain churches. And for obvious reasons. God is everything, and the Church has a monopoly on God. "

this is where we disagree... i personally think this is characteristic of anyone who associates with a group... fanaticism to me is not something religious people have a monopoly on *4

*1 I fundamentally disagree for reasons that I've gone into a bit. But expanding upon it a little more, science is just a rational way of making and organizing observations to learn from them. I think it is kind of fundamental to being human. Like our hands. They can be used to cradle and comfort children, or they can be used nefariously. 

*2 I think the word "peer" is key here. Science is a discussion among peers. Sometimes, the community can elevate people who can be corrupted, and put their thumb on the scale. This is bad. But I still see it as completely different from my experience in the Catholic Church, though. When I went to Church on Sundays, a guy at the front told me what was right and what was wrong. And some guy above him probably told him. 

*3 I 1,000% agree! Since you brought up Libya, and America, I'll go on record saying that I have a huge problem with patriotism in the United States (and probably other countries too, but I live in the US). I'm not saying that someone can't come to a rational conclusion on why bombing Libya, or anywhere else, is justified, but many people don't do that. They outsource their thinking to higher ups. Or they support it out of fear of being seen as not supporting the troops.

*4 I guess we do just disagree here. All organizations can be corrupted, but individual members going against leadership is made all the harder when the leaders ostensibly have God on their side.

We're probably at an impasse here, but good talk. Thanks for responding.



KratosLives said:
setsunatenshi said:
just reading the topic made me ask the question: "why?"

why does it need to stop exactly? long gone are the days that catholics could impose censorship or dictate how people should think / act.

so turns out the answer (even assuming the premise is a correct one) is no, it doesn't need to stop anything.

This is the 21st century where people are trying to make bridges and bring peace and religions together. We don't need hollywood telling us that catholics are fools and idiots. They've done alot more good for people than any other group, despite some scandals here and there over the years. We are talking of a population of over a billion! Let that sink in your mind for a bit. So there is bound to be some bad eggs. Now if i was to round up all the people from around the world who are athiests or from every other religious group, rapists pedos murderes, they'd be in the thousands. Now report it and make it big news. Should people belonging to that group feel ashamed and leave? Or should they stick to what they believe in. The people in hollywood don't give a shit deep down, otherwise they'd try do something about it like organise protests and more awareness, donations to causes. Except they want to offend people with morals doing the right thing and trying to enjoy a movie.

I honestly don't care how any artists makes 1 million, 1 billion or 1 trillion people feel.

I objected to the hidden follow up from the topic header. It seems like an "or else" is implicit to it and is quite worrying.

Are you going to provide the "or else"? If not then let's leave it there because I have no interest in the childish argument of "they said something I don't like"

 

I know that this shame you speak of is quite a big deal among the religious folk (at least some), but I literally could not care less for an argument based on who's ashamed lol



o_O.Q said:
palou said:

Those weapons have been created, but have barely been used. The atomic bomb, ironically, could in large part be responsible for why we did NOT have a direct war between any major powers in the last 70 years, even if the two largest powers hated each other with passion.

 

Wars were no less cruel, brutal before just because people used sticks and stones to murder each other.

 

When it comes down to it - who has reduced worldwide child mortality from 50 to 2 percent? Who’s made parasitical disease a thing of the past, turned the flue from a deadly disease to an annoying couple weeks in bed? Who has made food production so efficient that the *quantity* of food produced will never again be a problem? The church or the scientific community?

they are not the only weapons created by the scientific community for the lone purpose of killing though, millions die every year as a result of smaller scale weapons

 

"When it comes down to it - who has reduced worldwide child mortality from 50 to 2 percent? Who’s made parasitical disease a thing of the past, turned the flue from a deadly disease to an annoying couple weeks in bed? Who has made food production so efficient that the *quantity* of food produced will never again be a problem? The church or the scientific community?"

 

the scientific community... but if we wind up killing a whole bunch of other people through other means... can we concede that there are negative and positive aspects to it?

 

"Wars were no less cruel, brutal before just because people used sticks and stones to murder each other."

 

true but the consequences were less far reaching obviously... you can't compare a bomb leveling a whole area to someone throwing a stone

Not obviously, not obviously at all. Proportionally to population, wars killed far, far more in the past than they do nowadays - even when including the 2 great wars. The mongol conquests killed a quarter of the world population, for example. The world wars killed 2 percent.



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