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Forums - General Discussion - "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

Religion is important because it teaches good values.



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Peh said:
vivster said:

So you don't agree it's of infinite importance to know that magical ponies don't exist? Considering the vast majority of humans on this planet believe in magical ponies and are trying to inflict their magical pony morality and magical pony policies on us I think it's pretty important for everyone to know that there aren't any magical ponies. We waste so many resources on magical ponies that it really is the most important thing on earth to convince people that there aren't magical ponies.

Well, you made a point there. But people spend resources regardless of them being true or not. It's what they think they are. But let us assume uber magical sky pony is real and all what he did in the past is real as well. I would still not be a fan of his. Hm.. so at one point it is important to know in order to adjust your life to it. 

 

Jumpin said:

More or less a person could say present evidence that the Gospel story didn't happen, that they are a complete fiction but it wouldn't disprove Christianity. 

So, you could have a Christian who believes "God is a man in the sky. He will grant wishes that you pray to him. If you are good, you become an angel and go to heaven, which exists in the sky. If you are naughty or a non-believer, he will send you to a fiery hell, which is beneath the Earth's crust." - This is kind of Christianity for dummies (not in the sense that these are the basics of it, but in the sense that this is the form that dummies believe in; like the Simpsons characters). This is also more of a recent interpretation, this is not the description that any writers before the last couple hundred years describe Christianity; it's mostly a comedic interpretation. In Roman times, the idea of a man in the sky is something Christians found ridiculous as well, which is why they made fun of Pagans for it. There is medieval art and such of Jesus looking up, but that is mostly metaphorical because 

Reading actual Christian theologians and scholarly works, the above description is not really what they believe in. You have St. Augustine over 1500 years ago writing about how God the Father exists outside of time and space, while the holy spirit permeates all things. Even the Big Bang theory was essentially conceptualized as a scientific presentation of the creation with all the sacredness, metaphor, and spirituality taken out of the equation. Relativity and the dilation of spacetime is consistent with the trinitarian view that God the Father somehow exists beyond the universe, but "his" unchanging nature exists before, during, and after time - a massless object moving at the speed of light can hit the other side of the universe instantly (relative to its own point of reference) while the rest of the universe moves forward over a period of trillions of years.

If people want to be Christian, they will figure out a way to make the religion consistent with what we know is true today... and there will always be the dummies who reject a progress of knowledge and will still believe in the man in the sky anyway. But, I don't think there's a such thing as disproving Christianity. It's too huge of a thing. As long as it is appealing, there will be Christians. It is less appealing now because of globalization and people find church boring and a waste of time; those people drop off - but there are those that actually like it, and more Christians join simply due to this cultural appeal.

 

Some things in Christianity, very core systems, can't really be disproven. They are ideological concepts.

1. It is hypocrisy to judge people - this was the main message of Jesus, a group called the Pharisees were judging all sorts of people for breaking the Law (as in the biblical Law), and that they deserved punishment because they were doing something that would prevent them from getting into heaven. Jesus thought this was ridiculously stupid: they said "So you don't think these laws will get you into heaven" and he said "They will most certainly get you into heaven, I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that you're an asshole for judging people who don't follow the laws, and a hypocrite because you don't follow them either." The Pharisees were insulted at the suggestion, so Jesus said "Yeah dude, if you interpret adultery as even feeling lust for another that is not your wife, you are all sinners! So fuck you!" He didn't drop the F-bombs, but the intent was there. So Jesus essentially said, "All of those laws and commandments are really just aiming to get people to do two things - Love everyone and everything. And if you are beating and stoning people for not following the Laws, then you're a sinner yourself... and an asshole hypocrite."

2. Give to the needy - he said wealthy people are at a disadvantage because they have more to give up. Jesus effectively set up a commune for his followers. The irony is that a lot of the self-described staunch Christians are very anti-communism... despite the fact that Communism has been a common practice among Christian societies (monasteries, nuns, etc...) since the beginning of the faith. It just goes to show that Christianity means very different things to different people.

3. A person who rejects temptation has more freedom.

4. The metaphor for walking on water - it's not meant to be that "Whoah! It's a miracle! This guy can walk on water!" In the context, the story is about defying your pre-existing knowledge of the world and challenge yourself into exploring new knowledge without confines. It's the same as a psychedelic trip - one of the reasons why some people believe early Christians practiced psychedelic drug usage.

But anyway, I'm rambling, what I am trying to say is that these are all ideas and concepts. And the full body of work can really be applied to different understandings as to the origins of the Gospel. If Jesus didn't actually do any of this stuff, someone still wrote it, and that person had the stories in his/her head (yeah, it's possible that multiple books in the bible were written by women; particularly the Epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament)

If someone would proof that the story in the gospel never happened, than I wouldn't consider them being called Christians but rather Jews. 


For the rest of your reply, I have to get more into that.

Jumpin said:

Atheism is the belief that there are no gods.

Atheism is a disbelief. Atheists don't believe in a god or gods. They don't say that god does not exist. Well.. probably some do. But by definition, they simply don't believe. 

Atheist = átheos = Without God. 

Rogerioandrade said:

Because both are based on assumptions about  things whose existence will always be  unconclusive: spiritual beings.

Atheism is not about an assumption on a specific question. And atheist can believe in spiritual beings like angels, ghost and other stuff. They just don't believe in Deities. 

But is that not hypocritical?

How can one say that they truly believe in a lack of God, meaning that to them there is no God, and yet say that some atheist may believe that God exists? This backtracks on nearly everything mentioned in the first sentence. You even state in the last sentence they don't believe in deities, and yet may acknowledge that God may exist. I'm no atheist, but that does not sound like atheism.

If you don't believe in God you can't acknowledge that there might be a God. I'm not trying to be hostile, but it comes off as a confused atheist or flat out agnostic.



Jumpin said:

Atheism as "lacking belief in God" is an incredibly poor definition due to its broad/wishy-washy nature; it's fairly useless when defined like that. As Neil Degrasse Tyson put it, you don't define someone as an "aGolfer" because they don't golf. In addition, one who lacks belief in God or gods could be a deist agnostic rather than an atheist; since agnostics don't deny the existence of God or Gods, but they don't believe in them either.

The most broadly accepted definition of Atheist is "One who denies the existence of God or gods."

This is a useful definition, it is precise, and there isn't confusion about conflating its meaning with anything else.

No. 

By going with "atheists deny the existence of a god" or even saying that they believe god doesn't exists presumes that god  actually do exists. In which case has to be defined which god exists.

By saying "I don't believe in god" can be seen as " I am not convinced by your concept of god".

That is also the official definition of the word atheism. The one you are using is one that is being used mainly by apologetics who also call atheism a religion. That is simply wrong.

 

Agnosticism is also used incorrectly. Agnosticism says 2 things. 1. We don't know if a god exists. 2. We cannot and we won't know that a god exists. Meaning its impossible to answer that question. Agnostics are also considered atheists, because they are not believing in one.

 

And a deist is someone who believes in a god who kickstarted the universe and been absence ever since. Meaning whereas theist believe god interacts with our world, a deists on the other hand says he doesn't.

So I don't know what you mean by "deist agnostic".



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o_O.Q said:
Flilix said:

The main difference is that the 'anarcho-communits' base their morals on rationality, not on a random ancient book.

LMAO can you describe to me how anarchy which is a state in which there is no government is compatible with communism which requires a very large government?

i EAGERLY await your answer

Why do you argue in this manner? You use lol and lmao in such a condescending way. 

Have you studied these topics in-depth at school or something? Or read scholarly documents that we haven't? I don't understand how you expect to have a civilized discourse when you do nothing but talk down to everyone here and use phrases like "most," "many" and "pretty much" with little to no proof to back up any of your claims (except for other phrases like "I know better," against which nobody can really argue.)  

Can you point me in the direction of some of the anarcho-communist literature you're reading so I know where you're coming from? Or where you're sourcing your information on atheistic motivations? 



TH3-D0S3R said:
Peh said:

Well, you made a point there. But people spend resources regardless of them being true or not. It's what they think they are. But let us assume uber magical sky pony is real and all what he did in the past is real as well. I would still not be a fan of his. Hm.. so at one point it is important to know in order to adjust your life to it. 

 

If someone would proof that the story in the gospel never happened, than I wouldn't consider them being called Christians but rather Jews. 


For the rest of your reply, I have to get more into that.

Atheism is a disbelief. Atheists don't believe in a god or gods. They don't say that god does not exist. Well.. probably some do. But by definition, they simply don't believe. 

Atheist = átheos = Without God. 

Atheism is not about an assumption on a specific question. And atheist can believe in spiritual beings like angels, ghost and other stuff. They just don't believe in Deities. 

But is that not hypocritical?

How can one say that they truly believe in a lack of God, meaning that to them there is no God, and yet say that some atheist may believe that God exists? This backtracks on nearly everything mentioned in the first sentence. You even state in the last sentence they don't believe in deities, and yet may acknowledge that God may exist. I'm no atheist, but that does not sound like atheism.

If you don't believe in God you can't acknowledge that there might be a God. I'm not trying to be hostile, but it comes off as a confused atheist or flat out agnostic.

Atheists don't believe in deities. Atheism is not a beliefsystem as theism is. 

I don't say that some atheists say that god exists. Where did you get that?

I only said that there are people who are atheists by definition, but don't understand what it means when the make a claim about the existence of god. The correct way is to say that you don't believe that god exists. 

But saying that god doesn't exist is a claim which has to be proven. And they can't. No one can. Thus it would be stupid to even say something like that. Same as some theists say, "prove that god does not exist". That's not possible. You can't prove a negative. 

 

Hope that makes more sense now.

 

Hm...i guess I used disbelief wrong :/

Last edited by Peh - on 27 December 2017

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"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

Sounds like something a religious person would say. Hmmm.



Peh said:
TH3-D0S3R said:

But is that not hypocritical?

How can one say that they truly believe in a lack of God, meaning that to them there is no God, and yet say that some atheist may believe that God exists? This backtracks on nearly everything mentioned in the first sentence. You even state in the last sentence they don't believe in deities, and yet may acknowledge that God may exist. I'm no atheist, but that does not sound like atheism.

If you don't believe in God you can't acknowledge that there might be a God. I'm not trying to be hostile, but it comes off as a confused atheist or flat out agnostic.

Atheists don't believe in deities. Atheism is not a beliefsystem as theism is. 

I don't say that some atheists say that god exists. Where did you get that?

I only said that there are people who are atheists by definition, but don't understand what it means when the make a claim about the existence of god. The correct way is to say that you don't believe that god exists. 

But saying that god doesn't exist is a claim which has to be proven. And they can't. No one can. Thus it would be stupid to even say something like that. Same as some theists say, "prove that god does not exist". That's not possible. You can't prove a negative. 

 

Hope that makes more sense now.

 

Hm...i guess I used disbelief wrong :/

I must of misunderstood the intial bolded quote where you said some probably do. I thought when you said that you were referring to atheists as a whole rather than those who did not understand atheism in general.

Either way, coming from the other side, now that I know what you meant to say it seems pretty reasonable and fair. And like you said, it's hard to prove God as a whole. I believe he's there and don't tend to question beyond that, but I instead tend to question tendencies in right and wrong. I do mostly understand the sort of atheist view as a whole though.



TH3-D0S3R said:
Peh said:

Atheists don't believe in deities. Atheism is not a beliefsystem as theism is. 

I don't say that some atheists say that god exists. Where did you get that?

I only said that there are people who are atheists by definition, but don't understand what it means when the make a claim about the existence of god. The correct way is to say that you don't believe that god exists. 

But saying that god doesn't exist is a claim which has to be proven. And they can't. No one can. Thus it would be stupid to even say something like that. Same as some theists say, "prove that god does not exist". That's not possible. You can't prove a negative. 

 

Hope that makes more sense now.

 

Hm...i guess I used disbelief wrong :/

I must of misunderstood the intial bolded quote where you said some probably do. I thought when you said that you were referring to atheists as a whole rather than those who did not understand atheism in general.

Either way, coming from the other side, now that I know what you meant to say it seems pretty reasonable and fair. And like you said, it's hard to prove God as a whole. I believe he's there and don't tend to question beyond that, but I instead tend to question tendencies in right and wrong. I do mostly understand the sort of atheist view as a whole though.

Well, the atheistic view ends on the question, do you believe in a god?

All that comes after that or even before that are the arguments and such. And they have nothing to do with atheism in itself, but rather with other positions which one is holding.

Meaning, there is no doctrine, no teaching, no goal, no answers, nothing in atheism. Everything else has to be found somewhere else. Most people go to science for these answers. Thus, people associate atheism with science. And thus they try to debunk or disprove atheism by attacking scientific theories. And that....fails all the time. Simply because a scientific theory is proven to be true and is supported by a huge amount of evidence.



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nanarchy said:
SuperRetroTurbo said:
People need something to believe in. You have a choice. If you don't agree don't bother. That simple. Rotting in hell should be meaningless to you. God exist. Are the Christians right? Who knows....but let them be regardless. It shouldn't bother you.

It would be nice if people just let people be, sadly everyone thinks they have a right to impose their beliefs on others, this is especially true of most religious groups. We have had a gut full of the various Christian groups in Australia trying to impose their beliefs in the laws of the land and from what I see it is the same the world over regardless of religion.

I totally agree with you. That's why I said " people" have a choice. They (Christians) should not persuade others in the same light. 

 

It's just a relentless case of pointing fingers and having fingers pointed at you....it will never change.



Insert Coin. Press START. You Died. Continue?

Here's just an analogy about atheism which I think fits perfectly.

https://youtu.be/fwwBzffdCvg



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