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Forums - General Discussion - "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

vivster said:
adisababa said:

But people do function right now, not to get into "heaven", it's called money. We live now in a consumerist society more than anything else, while religion did impact people for centuries, right now and ever since world war 1 people function for money. 

Religion, on the other hand, is deeply rooted, like it or not, in the morals of society. 

People have always only been driven by selfish desires, long before there was money. Because what is money if not something you exchange for happiness. Believing in a religion itself is for completely selfish reasons because it gives you closure. You also have to eat less because you don't waste energy on critical thinking.

Religion is a logical conclusion to human's and all organisms' primitive desires. Just one more way to achieve happiness and bliss. You could say that atheists are behaving irrationally because they're depriving themselves from easy additional happiness but they do get their fix somewhere else, so it's fine. What I'm saying money and religion serve the exact same purpose, just like smug atheists going on forums and lecturing believers is for their selfish self fulfillment.

The problem with religion though is that it holds back progress and as such advancements that could make our lives even better and be more efficient at producing happiness.

 

" You could say that atheists are behaving irrationally because they're depriving themselves from easy additional happiness but they do get their fix somewhere else, so it's fine"

 

which implies that atheists don't get an ego boost and validation from laughing at religious people and calling them stupid, which i personally think is the main reason for holding that position to begin with... 



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Peh said:
vivster said:

Because atheism is the reverse of religion. If something is true or false, then the opposite of that thing is also true or false. Simple math, really.

So, not believing in magical ponies has what kind of infinite importance?

Mind you that there are atheistic religions like Buddhism.

So you don't agree it's of infinite importance to know that magical ponies don't exist? Considering the vast majority of humans on this planet believe in magical ponies and are trying to inflict their magical pony morality and magical pony policies on us I think it's pretty important for everyone to know that there aren't any magical ponies. We waste so many resources on magical ponies that it really is the most important thing on earth to convince people that there aren't magical ponies.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

o_O.Q said:
vivster said:

People have always only been driven by selfish desires, long before there was money. Because what is money if not something you exchange for happiness. Believing in a religion itself is for completely selfish reasons because it gives you closure. You also have to eat less because you don't waste energy on critical thinking.

Religion is a logical conclusion to human's and all organisms' primitive desires. Just one more way to achieve happiness and bliss. You could say that atheists are behaving irrationally because they're depriving themselves from easy additional happiness but they do get their fix somewhere else, so it's fine. What I'm saying money and religion serve the exact same purpose, just like smug atheists going on forums and lecturing believers is for their selfish self fulfillment.

The problem with religion though is that it holds back progress and as such advancements that could make our lives even better and be more efficient at producing happiness.

" You could say that atheists are behaving irrationally because they're depriving themselves from easy additional happiness but they do get their fix somewhere else, so it's fine"

which implies that atheists don't get an ego boost and validation from laughing at religious people and calling them stupid, which i personally think is the main reason for holding that position to begin with... 

No, it implies exactly that. We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking. It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief. It's not the main reason to "hold that position", it's one of the few things that helps us cope. Also, atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
o_O.Q said:

" You could say that atheists are behaving irrationally because they're depriving themselves from easy additional happiness but they do get their fix somewhere else, so it's fine"

which implies that atheists don't get an ego boost and validation from laughing at religious people and calling them stupid, which i personally think is the main reason for holding that position to begin with... 

No, it implies exactly that. We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking. It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief. It's not the main reason to "hold that position", it's one of the few things that helps us cope. Also, atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method.

"We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking" 

but the thing is... you (not you personally but atheists generally) end up following the same patterns of thought that religious people do and you have no idea how unbelievably amusing it is to see the lack of consistency and awareness

where do you think all of these anarcho-communist that want to bring heaven on earth are coming from? what about the people that want to bring about "equality"? its motivated by the same paradigms that influence religious people... the only different is that god is being replaced by the state/man

 

"It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief"

i'm sorry but i don't buy that argument...atheism is the IN thing now, its trendy to be atheist in modern countries now especially among the youth, just look at the answers in this thread for example

to imply that you become some sort of a pariah for being an atheist just isn't in line with what's actually going on... if anything its more of the opposite

 

" it's one of the few things that helps us cope"

lol stop

 

"atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method."

its actually not... you can't show me a scientific experiment that disproves a god or the supernatural... we can't even measure the vast majority of the matter around us



Totally agree, just leave people alone.  Let them believe whatever they want. because, let's say Christianity is true and all non believers are going to hell...  Let's take homosexuals for example..  You cannot be gay and Christian, because it's an "abomination" and all that...  The bible states that very clearly.  Are Christians actually going to try to make someone "not gay"?  It's foolishness.

If it's really an "abomination" and the whole LGBT community is on a one way ticket to the pit of fire, let them be and move on with your life because it effects you exactly zero.



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I have no idea.



o_O.Q said:
vivster said:

No, it implies exactly that. We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking. It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief. It's not the main reason to "hold that position", it's one of the few things that helps us cope. Also, atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method.

"We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking" 

but the thing is... you (not you personally but atheists generally) end up following the same patterns of thought that religious people do and you have no idea how unbelievably amusing it is to see the lack of consistency and awareness

where do you think all of these anarcho-communist that want to bring heaven on earth are coming from? what about the people that want to bring about "equality"? its motivated by the same paradigms that influence religious people... the only different is that god is being replaced by the state/man

 

"It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief"

i'm sorry but i don't buy that argument...atheism is the IN thing now, its trendy to be atheist in modern countries now especially among the youth, just look at the answers in this thread for example

to imply that you become some sort of a pariah for being an atheist just isn't in line with what's actually going on... if anything its more of the opposite

 

" it's one of the few things that helps us cope"

lol stop

 

"atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method."

its actually not... you can't show me a scientific experiment that disproves a god or the supernatural... we can't even measure the vast majority of the matter around us

So you claim that atheism is a religion? Though it does share similarities with religion like conviction and a belief system, it is nowhere close to being a religion. There is one huge difference, we don't believe, or have faith in the supernatural or God or anything intangible. We use reasoning through lack of evidence, historical inconsistencies, unreliable sources and of course science. If god is being replaced by the state/man then that means we believe in something concrete and tangible rather than something that doesn't exist (since it hasn't been proven), and that by its very nature means that it is not a religion and thus their "paradigms of thought" are vastly different than that of the religious. The religious rely on faith while atheists use reasoning. 

I kinda agree however it would be a lie to say that it is not a by-product of science, I think the right thing to say is that it is not ONLY a by-product of science. There are a lot more elements at play here. 



o_O.Q said:
vivster said:

No, it implies exactly that. We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking. It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief. It's not the main reason to "hold that position", it's one of the few things that helps us cope. Also, atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method.

"We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking" 

but the thing is... you (not you personally but atheists generally) end up following the same patterns of thought that religious people do and you have no idea how unbelievably amusing it is to see the lack of consistency and awareness

where do you think all of these anarcho-communist that want to bring heaven on earth are coming from? what about the people that want to bring about "equality"? its motivated by the same paradigms that influence religious people... the only different is that god is being replaced by the state/man

The main difference is that the 'anarcho-communits' base their morals on rationality, not on a random ancient book.



o_O.Q said:

"We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking" 

but the thing is... you (not you personally but atheists generally) end up following the same patterns of thought that religious people do and you have no idea how unbelievably amusing it is to see the lack of consistency and awareness

where do you think all of these anarcho-communist that want to bring heaven on earth are coming from? what about the people that want to bring about "equality"? its motivated by the same paradigms that influence religious people... the only different is that god is being replaced by the state/man

"It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief"

i'm sorry but i don't buy that argument...atheism is the IN thing now, its trendy to be atheist in modern countries now especially among the youth, just look at the answers in this thread for example

to imply that you become some sort of a pariah for being an atheist just isn't in line with what's actually going on... if anything its more of the opposite

" it's one of the few things that helps us cope"

lol stop

"atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method."

its actually not... you can't show me a scientific experiment that disproves a god or the supernatural... we can't even measure the vast majority of the matter around us

The scientific method doesn't have a bias. It's there to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. It does not lend itself to absolute negative statements like "there is no god". It's only meant for absolute positive statements, like "there is no proof of god". And it isn't rigid either. If the scientific method ever finds definitive proof of a god then that will be another fact and everyone who believes in science will also believe in that god because he has been proven to exist. I mean why not believe in something that has been proven to exist?

And how is atheism an "in thing"? Basically everyone who has not been indoctrinated by parents to believe in some sort of god follows atheism because if there is no evidence of something, there is no point in wasting time believing it. Atheism isn't really a belief, it's the absence of a believe. It's the trust in the scientific method and critical thinking. Though "trust" is again a bad word because facts do not need trust to be true. If we can see something and we can measure something and we can verify it and reproduce it, it is real. Everything that wants to be real needs to follow those simple rules.

Atheists have not been indoctrinated to not believe in any gods, they have come to that conclusion themselves. An atheist household doesn't speak of god, because they are of no concern, much like magic ponies. Atheism isn't indoctrination like Religion, it's the absence of indoctrination. You have to teach a child what a god is. To teach a child to not believe in god you just don't mention god and it will come to that conclusion itself. If a god exists, it would be easy for people who have never heard of it to believe in it. But they don't unless they find solid proof, which does not exist yet.

And even if you don't agree, atheism has nothing to do with politics or society for that matter. It's nothing but a simple conclusion based on verifiable facts that does not affect anything. As for Atheists dangling their superiority constantly in front of religious people. We wouldn't have to constantly remind people of how stupid they are if they'd just stop trying to wear they stupidity as a badge of honor and stop interfering with people who don't believe in their magical ponies.

Atheism doesn't have policies or rules to oppose on people. Religion does. And it does so frequently.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

adisababa said:
o_O.Q said:

"We atheists do get an enormous amount of satisfaction from the fact that we're not complete morons and are in fact able to employ critical thinking" 

but the thing is... you (not you personally but atheists generally) end up following the same patterns of thought that religious people do and you have no idea how unbelievably amusing it is to see the lack of consistency and awareness

where do you think all of these anarcho-communist that want to bring heaven on earth are coming from? what about the people that want to bring about "equality"? its motivated by the same paradigms that influence religious people... the only different is that god is being replaced by the state/man

 

"It's one of the very few things that helps to hold the balance against all the negative things we do receive because of our belief"

i'm sorry but i don't buy that argument...atheism is the IN thing now, its trendy to be atheist in modern countries now especially among the youth, just look at the answers in this thread for example

to imply that you become some sort of a pariah for being an atheist just isn't in line with what's actually going on... if anything its more of the opposite

 

" it's one of the few things that helps us cope"

lol stop

 

"atheism isn't a position that you can hold. It's a mere byproduct of using the scientific method."

its actually not... you can't show me a scientific experiment that disproves a god or the supernatural... we can't even measure the vast majority of the matter around us

So you claim that atheism is a religion? Though it does share similarities with religion like conviction and a belief system, it is nowhere close to being a religion. There is one huge difference, we don't believe, or have faith in the supernatural or God or anything intangible. We use reasoning through lack of evidence, historical inconsistencies, unreliable sources and of course science. If god is being replaced by the state/man then that means we believe in something concrete and tangible rather than something that doesn't exist (since it hasn't been proven), and that by its very nature means that it is not a religion and thus their "paradigms of thought" are vastly different than that of the religious. The religious rely on faith while atheists use reasoning. 

I kinda agree however it would be a lie to say that it is not a by-product of science, I think the right thing to say is that it is not ONLY a by-product of science. There are a lot more elements at play here. 

 

"So you claim that atheism is a religion?"

no i did not... i stated that for many atheists the motivational drive to be atheist ultimately is the same as for religious people with their religion

beyond that many atheists have similar aims to religious people

an example i listed earlier is the rise of "anarcho-communists" who are pretty much all atheists who have the goal of bringing about the communist utopia (heaven) on earth through the state (god)... but they can't see their hypocrisy because they lack the self awareness to do so

 

from where i stand there really isn't much different between the average atheist and the average religious person... they both don't really understand their beliefs or motivation drives

 

"We use reasoning through lack of evidence, historical inconsistencies, unreliable sources and of course science."

lol that's your claim, but from what i've seen its not really true

 

"If god is being replaced by the state/man then that means we believe in something concrete and tangible rather than something that doesn't exist"

lol that's a fair point, but you have to understand that the motivation drive is the exact same and beyond that i'd say that to place faith in men to make a perfect world is the most foolhardy thing i can think of

 

" If god is being replaced by the state/man then that means we believe in something concrete and tangible rather than something that doesn't exist (since it hasn't been proven), and that by its very nature means that it is not a religion and thus their "paradigms of thought" are vastly different than that of the religious. The religious rely on faith while atheists use reasoning. "

if the goal of the motivation - a perfect world or utopia or "equality"  is the same how can you rationally tell me that the patterns of thought are different?

 

"The religious rely on faith while atheists use reasoning. "

LOL you don't really understand people then and that's unfortunate because it means that at least partly you don't understand yourself