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The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Forums - Movies Discussion - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

Shadow1980 said:
thismeintiel said:

Gross mischaracterization. 

1.  Alright, hotshot, how bout you address one of the HUGE plotholes that even those who claim to love the movie won't even try to address because they know there is no answer, and even dwelling on it could ruin the movie for them.  Keep in mind this is the MAIN plot of the film.  They had 18 hrs of fuel.  In that 18 hrs, why did the Order not call another ship in to block their path or be within a few feet behind them, and then blast them?  Or, since they can track exactly where they are and currently have their exact location, jump to lightspeed then jump back right behind them or in front of them?  Or if lightspeed is now a weapon, why didn't they have some of their smaller ships jump right through their ship and blow it to hell, ending the whole thing?  There's a reason we have never had any of these slow speed BS chases in the other films.

2.  No one gives a shit if it didn't go EXACTLY as they had planned.  There are countless theories and speculation about what was going to happen.  You couldn't have done them all.  But, any one of those theories were tons better than what we got.  A big bunch of nothing and unanswered questions.  We asked for something, but got nothing.  SW is supposed to be an epic.  Not mundane and boring, something that also hurt parts of the prequels.  And it deserves much better than the continuation of the Mary Sue character. Especially when before Mary Sue, we had a strong, realistic woman in Princess Leia.  And like I said before, this isn't a new movie in a new film franchise.  It is the continuation of a hugely popular trilogy that hundreds of millions have seen.  You can't just hit the reset button on the political structure of the galaxy without explaining that shit.  To act like wanting answers to those questions is too much is just ridiculous.

And those lines are just Disney's way of telling the fans "Fuck the OG trilogy, the franchise is ours to do with it what we want."  I mean, they could of meant something in the actual movie if they led to anything interesting, which they did not.  Just the same old Rebellion vs Empire story they claim they are changing.  And the salt was an obvious attempt to be like, "Hey, guys, it's totally not Hoth.  It's salt, not snow.  Nope, not Hoth.  Nope, nope."

3.  Sorry, but the MASSIVE drop in user ratings and box office draw can't be explained by trolls, or the Alt-Right, like some want to believe.  People just did not like the film.  They aren't lining up in droves to watch it, again.  And again.  And again.  And they are telling their friends how poor it was, too.

1. "Why didn't the First Order do this? Why didn't they do that?" You're acting like questionable tactical choices are a new thing in Star Wars. If you think too hard about it, you might come to the realization that maybe, just maybe, the Rebels had a really shitty strategy during the Battle of Yavin 4, as an example. And the Empire in the OT was incredibly incompetent. They, like many other fictional villains in well-regarded titles, were frequently inept, often did things "for the evulz," and exhibited extreme hubris, often paying for it dearly. You could argue that Mr. "Hold your fire. There's no life forms. It must have short-circuited" was responsible for the downfall of the Empire. But if he did the smart thing, the movie, and the series, would have been over in 15 minutes... like many other movies and TV series, even well-regarded ones. Yet nobody bats an eye at dumb tactics & strategies in classic films because nostalgia. But the FO engages in stupid, hubristic tactics and suddenly they, and by extension TLJ itself, gets shit on by the fanbase, because "LOL nuWars." It's all a bunch of molehill mountaineering.

2. Unanswered questions, huh? Let's look at one of the biggest ones: "Who is Snoke?" TLJ didn't give any background on Snoke, but so what? It's not important to the plot. The OT told us jack shit about Palpatine, and he didn't even show up in the flesh until ROTJ, dying in the climax with nary a trace of any background. We just know he's that mysterious leader of the Empire mentioned in ANH and briefly shown via hologram in ESB. We had to wait another 13 years to get any further development on his character in the films.

"You can't just hit the reset button on the political structure of the galaxy without explaining that shit." Sure they can. Yeah, maybe they could have added a bunch of long-winded exposition to TFA and TLJ about trade deals what happened to the galacto-political landscape in the 30-year time skip... or just save the details of world-building for books and comics for the hardcore fans that want to know more, which they are doing.

And if Rey is a Mary Sue, then Luke is a Marty Stu.

3. People deliberately giving the movie one-star and half-star ratings on RT isn't trolling? Review bombing is a real thing, and it's a dick move intended to potentially undermine the film/show/game/etc. More casual audiences that aren't hardcore SW fans of 30+ years like yours truly could be influenced to not view the movie by extremely exaggerated claims of it being a literally horrible film deserving of the same rating one would give schlock like Ishtar, Leonard Part 6, Battlefield Earth, or, well, any movie on this list. TLJ is not a bad movie. Imperfect, but incredibly entertaining. Spoiled nerds with an overblown sense of entitlement are deliberately attempting sabotaging the box office potential of this film. The blind rage I've seen over TLJ is totally unwarranted. Some people need to chill the fuck out and learn to enjoy a movie.

1. Lol, wow, what stretch. You're honestly going to compare the stupid call of a grunt, in a scene that lasts 1 min, with the grand plan from the Order, in an event that is the main plot of the film and takes place over the course of 18 hrs? There's a reason people call the flaws of the OG nitpicks, while this is a huge gaping hole. There's also a reason Lucas was never so stupid to focus the plot of his film on a turtle VS turtle race.

2. Sorry, there's no more argument on this topic. This is not the new movie in a new franchise. We've seen ROTJ. We know how that ended. You don't get a pass for being a lazy writer who can't think up a couple simple scenes to explain it. 

Same thing, no more argument. If your character is the text book definition of a Mary Sue, they are a Mary Sue. And Luke is one? OK, now I know you have never watched the OT.

3. Entitled nerds? Wow, can only fight their opinion with insults? Those nerds deserve to be entitled. Without them there would only be one SW movie that would have failed at the box office. And there wouldn't have been a reason for these movies to exist. To think these movies only belong to Hollywood is the true feeling of entitlement. And those low ratings aren't just being left by diehard fans, either.

It's also pathetic that you think they should just eat whatever movie Disney gives them and continue to go to the theaters for repeat viewings, just cause it's hurting the box office. We are not servants to Hollywood. They put out a product. We don't like it, we let it be known and don't show up.

Aura7541 said: 
d21lewis said: 
Is Rey a "Mary Sue"? Is Luke a "Marty Stu"? Take a few minutes and watch this video:

https://youtu.be/CALcI-4vM8E

Yep, this video covers much of my complaints with Rey. There were no stakes and no tension, which made her accomplishments come off rather hollow. For example, I actually don't have a problem with the outcome of Rey's fight against Kylo, but rather how she beat Kylo. Earlier in the TFA, the movie establishes Rey as a very cerebral, savvy character. Instead of fighting Kylo head on, she could've used the environment to her advantage to beat him, which would make more sense in the context of her lack of Jedi training and stays consistent with her character.

EXACTLY. Instead, they make her a Mary Sue who can take him on, one on one. And people need to stop using the excuse that he's injured. Go back and watch that fight. He's jumping and moving all over the place, still swinging his lightsaber like he's completely fine.

Nautilus said: 

Having just watched the movie, I honestly found it extremely good and I honestly dont understand all this hate it is getting.Sure it has some wtf moments that should have been done better, like Leia being blown and thrown to space but somehow uses the force, something she never used before, to save herself.And Finn being a less than useful charachter, specially since he is the only clone to ever break away from the empire and not exployting that concept and simply brushing it off as an genetic error.But other than that, The Last Jedi was an espectacle, with excellent writing and good humor.It is an excellent movie, and a movie that I recommend to anyone to watch.

Now, I will now speculate why people are upset about the movie, but since I can see this opinion getting a significant backlash, Im not answering anyone back that dosent respond with reason or arguments to back it up.Honestly, I think nostalgia is blinding people to be objective to the movie.Hell, I will go even farther than that and say that it is literally impossible for a new Star Wars film to be considered great ever again.If Disney tries to play too safe, you get episode VII, and people will say "ah, its too similar to the old movies"!But if Disney tries to do something more original(and by that, they NEED to implement new stuff that the Force can do, or situations that you might imply is not very Star Wars-ish), people will then complain that it dosent feel like Star Wars and wont like it.It will be simply impossible to keep the fans happy, plain and simple, because it will be impossible to meet the standarts that the fans want them to reach, simply because there isnt a movie that can do what they want.Sure that the film is not perfect, it has some flaws as the ones that I just said the paragraph before, but its a great movie.

Its not like some fans complaining about the movie will stop Star Wars from being successful ever again.This movie will probably raise it to new heights, but its disheartening to see reactions like this.

This has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. People go back and watch those films almost yearly. They know the flaws in them. They even show them to their kids, who then also fall in love with them, and their story and world, even though they are so old  that MOST movies in their era aren't even given the time of day by those same kids.

No, this movie fails on its own merits, or lack thereof. The points set up in TFA are completely dropped or lead to nothing special, making the movie incredibly mundane/boring, while taking away the hope from people who defended TFA that those unanswered questions would be answered. The humor is out of place and jarring. And that scene that doesn't belong in a SW movie isn't because it's different, but good, it's because it's horribly kid movie generic.

NightlyPoe said: 
thismeintiel said: 

Oh, would you guys stop it with moving the goal posts.  We're no longer trying to compare it tother mainline SW films, cause that makes it look bad.  If this movie was good, it doesn't matter the schedule it had, it would be doing gangbusters.  And it actually started out fine.  WW it was only behind TFA by ~$80M, a drop of ~15%.  You could say that was because of the calendar or TFA hype or whatever.  But, the calendar does not account for the massive drop it has continued to see.  It's not even been two weeks since release and TLJ is already $335M off from TFA, or 32% down.  It's only going to continue to get worse.

And no, no it isn't.  And fans are letting it be known with their wallets.

Moving the goal posts?  This is the first post I've had on this in this forum about this.  I've got dated documentation that I was warning people that the schedule was going to make a big difference.

"Looking forward, this will likely not do nearly as well during its first week as The Force Awakens.  Two years ago, the dates lined up perfectly so that all schools were out for its first two weeks in theaters.  This year, many, if not most, schools will remain open next week.  Not to mention the inescapable fact that it's not the first Star Wars film in a decade.  Still, it's virtually guaranteed to top the yearly chart."

And here:

Unfortunately, Christmas Eve is a bad day for box office.  So TLJ's going to take a hit next weekend while everyone's doing last-minute shopping and greeting guests on Sunday.

So I actually do know what I'm talking about and predicted exactly this would happen.  And, yes, the calendar does make a difference and is predictable.  Arguing otherwise is internet posturing.  Even The Force Awakens had a dip for Christmas Eve.  The Last Jedi had to fight with Christmas shopping all through its 2nd weekend.

And, yes The Last Jedi was better.  It actually, my gosh, challenged the audience and made them uncomfortable.  The Force Awakens was pure rehashed fluff, and not even all that well put together.  It was an embarrassment to a franchise built on imagination.

Yea, I'm sure you were expecting a dismal fall of ~70%.  The largest drop in the series and a God awful number for ANY movie, regardless of the circumstances. 



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Shadow1980 said:

And if Rey is a Mary Sue, then Luke is a Marty Stu.

Gonna stop you right there:

 

1. Luke's one gift in life was his pilot skills, which was attained through practice, not by virtue of being a female Protagonist.

2. Luke lived a normal Tatooine life; Rey "struggled" and is therefore more interesting by default.

3. Luke got fucked by Jawas and nearly got fucked in the cantina; Rey kicked the shit out of a group of armed individuals.

4. Luke was roughly on Han's level of skill when manning the guns in the MF; Rey is a goddess with all forms of technology even though that's not how the force works.

5. Luke had to struggle and concentrate to use force pull in the Wampa cave; Rey accidentally used force pull to much greater effectiveness with no effort from a further distance.

6. Luke not only lost his first lightsaber duel, but lost a damn hand in the process and nearly died; Rey humiliated Kylo, whose only disadvantage seemed to be because he was male.

7. Luke never pulled off any high level force techniques until he'd trained for 3 years; Rey accidentally did the mind trick on the second try.

8. Luke's skill with a blaster could be explained by his proficiency for gunning things down in his ship on Tatooine; Rey instinctively got a kill shot the second time she ever fired a blaster and proceeded to get an insane kill:shot ratio.

9. Luke struggled and failed to lift an X-wing, and barely managed to lift three rocks while balancing; Rey lifted rocks like it ain't no thang and does zero effort.

 

The fact is Luke had clear parameters on what kind of person he was in IV, which gradually expanded over the course of V and VI, with RotJ showing him as a Jedi after training for a number of years. Rey has been doing things that Final Form Luke had trouble pulling off (his mind trick didn't work every time, whereas Rey has a perfect success rate). Rey is the single worst character in all of Star Wars, and the only ones who disagree seem to be disillusioned about there NEEDING to be a perfect female Jedi as the protagonist.

 

Sorry, but super-flawed Jedi Finn sounds like a much better choice. His journey to become a Jedi would be so much more interesting to watch.



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Nautilus said:

Having just watched the movie, I honestly found it extremely good and I honestly dont understand all this hate it is getting.Sure it has some wtf moments that should have been done better, like Leia being blown and thrown to space but somehow uses the force, something she never used before, to save herself.And Finn being a less than useful charachter, specially since he is the only clone to ever break away from the empire and not exployting that concept and simply brushing it off as an genetic error.But other than that, The Last Jedi was an espectacle, with excellent writing and good humor.It is an excellent movie, and a movie that I recommend to anyone to watch.

Now, I will now speculate why people are upset about the movie, but since I can see this opinion getting a significant backlash, Im not answering anyone back that dosent respond with reason or arguments to back it up.Honestly, I think nostalgia is blinding people to be objective to the movie.Hell, I will go even farther than that and say that it is literally impossible for a new Star Wars film to be considered great ever again.If Disney tries to play too safe, you get episode VII, and people will say "ah, its too similar to the old movies"!But if Disney tries to do something more original(and by that, they NEED to implement new stuff that the Force can do, or situations that you might imply is not very Star Wars-ish), people will then complain that it dosent feel like Star Wars and wont like it.It will be simply impossible to keep the fans happy, plain and simple, because it will be impossible to meet the standarts that the fans want them to reach, simply because there isnt a movie that can do what they want.Sure that the film is not perfect, it has some flaws as the ones that I just said the paragraph before, but its a great movie.

Its not like some fans complaining about the movie will stop Star Wars from being successful ever again.This movie will probably raise it to new heights, but its disheartening to see reactions like this.

I watched it and didn't hate it, but noticed some flaws. I've had a few days to think on the movie, so I'll list the flaws here.

1. Finn's entire subplot was pointless, because the purple haired lady had a plan all along. She just refused to tell anybody for some reason, leading to a useless mutiny in the ship. The whole thing where they went to a casino planet and returned could be cut from the movie entirely and the plot would still make as much sense as it currently does. 

2. How the First Order has gained control of the galaxy is never explained. This weighed on me the entire way through the film. I mean the Rebels have had 30+ years to build a new republic. At the end of TFA they win a major military victory by blowing up the death star planet. How are they close to being annihilated in the second movie? 

3. If ramming a ship with hyperspace engines is all it takes to destroy a Star Destroyer, then why hasn't it been done before? I mean you would think that war would revolve around such an effective maneuver in this universe. 

4. Objects in motion in space don't lose speed once they get going. Once a ship runs out of fuel it doesn't just slow down. An object in motion stays in motion. This means the entire "oh we'll just chase them until they run out of fuel" plot ignores the rules of physics. 

5. They never explained why Luke wants the Jedi to die out, and they never explained why he changes his mind at the end. 

6. Rey really is a Mary Sue. 

7. I enjoyed the Snoke death twist, but it's kind of weird how easily he was killed. I mean, he could link minds across the galaxy, read minds, and force push/choke people across lightyears, but gets killed by a sneaky lightsaber trick? 

Again, I didn't hate the movie. It wasn't nearly as bad as the prequels. But I'd hardly call it great. 



thismeintiel said:

I look forward to the day when you actually change your mind on this film.  How anyone can like that the plot of a half hour episode of Star Trek:TNG or Clone Wars, and not a great one I'll add, got stretched out to 2 hrs is acceptable for a mainline SW movie is beyond me.  Can't be a real fan if they don't care that SW has been reduced to this.  Thank god real fans are speaking with their wallets.

Speaking with their wallets? These wallets just placed TLJ into the second biggest opening of all time. These wallets will continue to surge TLJ into one of the biggest movies of all time. If fans are speaking with their wallets then they must LOOOOOOVE this movie.



A_C_E said:
thismeintiel said:

I look forward to the day when you actually change your mind on this film.  How anyone can like that the plot of a half hour episode of Star Trek:TNG or Clone Wars, and not a great one I'll add, got stretched out to 2 hrs is acceptable for a mainline SW movie is beyond me.  Can't be a real fan if they don't care that SW has been reduced to this.  Thank god real fans are speaking with their wallets.

Speaking with their wallets? These wallets just placed TLJ into the second biggest opening of all time. These wallets will continue to surge TLJ into one of the biggest movies of all time. If fans are speaking with their wallets then they must LOOOOOOVE this movie.

Yes, a hugely hyped SW movie is going to open big. Especially when many fans excused the flaws of the last movie because they thought they would be addressed in this film. Now that they realize they weren't, they aren't coming back to rewatch it, like they did with TFA.

You can excuse the largest drop in SW history, and a horrible drop for any movie, if it makes you feel better, but the facts are there. 



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I'm noticing that the backlash is huge. As huge as the dropoff from the box office.

And many are changing also their mind about tfa and addressing it was a bad sw movie.

Glorious day. The evil disney empire is going to end.



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thismeintiel said:
A_C_E said:

Speaking with their wallets? These wallets just placed TLJ into the second biggest opening of all time. These wallets will continue to surge TLJ into one of the biggest movies of all time. If fans are speaking with their wallets then they must LOOOOOOVE this movie.

Yes, a hugely hyped SW movie is going to open big. Especially when many fans excused the flaws of the last movie because they thought they would be addressed in this film. Now that they realize they weren't, they aren't coming back to rewatch it, like they did with TFA.

You can excuse the largest drop in SW history, and a horrible drop for any movie, if it makes you feel better, but the facts are there. 

My argument was TLJ is going to be one of the biggest movies of all time as well as having the second biggest opening of all time thanks to people using their wallets.

Where did I excuse the largest drop in SW history? You see, I didn't. Since you couldn't argue my point, you had to fabricate some context. You should work on that next time.



A_C_E said:
thismeintiel said:

Yes, a hugely hyped SW movie is going to open big. Especially when many fans excused the flaws of the last movie because they thought they would be addressed in this film. Now that they realize they weren't, they aren't coming back to rewatch it, like they did with TFA.

You can excuse the largest drop in SW history, and a horrible drop for any movie, if it makes you feel better, but the facts are there. 

My argument was TLJ is going to be one of the biggest movies of all time as well as having the second biggest opening of all time thanks to people using their wallets.

Where did I excuse the largest drop in SW history? You see, I didn't. Since you couldn't argue my point, you had to fabricate some context. You should work on that next time.

LOL, you're the one claiming people liked it because of the opening, which was driven by hype. But then what does the huge drop mean?  Hmm. Maybe you should try harder on that fabrication thing. 



thismeintiel said:

LOL, you're the one claiming people liked it because of the opening, which was driven by hype. But then what does the huge drop mean?  Hmm. Maybe you should try harder on that fabrication thing. 

Where did I claim people liked it because of the opening? I said, "If fans are speaking with their wallets, then they must LOOOVE this movie". I was mocking you, lol, and you still don't get it. Right over your head. I did not make the connection between love and money, you did by saying you were glad people were speaking with their wallets. 

TLJ has the second biggest opening of all time and will be one of the biggest movies of all time, whether it has a huge drop or not, this is a fact, but according to you this is fabrication? OK buddy!



thismeintiel said:

1. Lol, wow, what stretch. You're honestly going to compare the stupid call of a grunt, in a scene that lasts 1 min, with the grand plan from the Order, in an event that is the main plot of the film and takes place over the course of 18 hrs? There's a reason people call the flaws of the OG nitpicks, while this is a huge gaping hole. There's also a reason Lucas was never so stupid to focus the plot of his film on a turtle VS turtle race.

2. Sorry, there's no more argument on this topic. This is not the new movie in a new franchise. We've seen ROTJ. We know how that ended. You don't get a pass for being a lazy writer who can't think up a couple simple scenes to explain it. 

Same thing, no more argument. If your character is the text book definition of a Mary Sue, they are a Mary Sue. And Luke is one? OK, now I know you have never watched the OT.

3. Entitled nerds? Wow, can only fight their opinion with insults? Those nerds deserve to be entitled. Without them there would only be one SW movie that would have failed at the box office. And there wouldn't have been a reason for these movies to exist. To think these movies only belong to Hollywood is the true feeling of entitlement. And those low ratings aren't just being left by diehard fans, either.

It's also pathetic that you think they should just eat whatever movie Disney gives them and continue to go to the theaters for repeat viewings, just cause it's hurting the box office. We are not servants to Hollywood. They put out a product. We don't like it, we let it be known and don't show up.

#1. The point is, the FO isn't somehow so grossly incompetent that they make the Empire seem like tactical/strategic geniuses. Even in popular and well-regarded works of fiction, including each era of Star Wars, incompetent villains are a common trope. People's nostalgia filters let them excuse such things in works they grew up loving, but the exact same thing in a newer work in the same series results in "RUINED FOREVER!" reactions. Nearly every complaint about the new trilogy can be easily lodged against the original trilogy.

#2. No, you wanted more backstory on the FO in the films. You're not entitled to it, and it's not important to the movie's story. It's explained in expanded universe materials. Even without that background material from the books, one can easily infer that the Empire was not completely crushed at Endor (because a galaxy-spanning military force would not simply cease functioning because they lost a single, albeit critical, battle as well as their leader; even in Legends the Thrawn Trilogy showed the Imperial Navy continued on after Endor), and that at least some remnants reorganized and created a new organization dedicated to the Empire's principle of galactic fascist terror. Neither TFA nor TLJ needed any exposition regarding the FO's origins to function as a film. Nor did it need any background on Snoke. Who he was wasn't important to the immediate story of TLJ. Just like Sidious in ROTJ, he merely serves as a plot device with minimal screen time, not a fleshed-out character.

Also, I've watched the OT movies at least 200 times each over the past 30+ years, so bite me. I'm not saying Luke is a Gary Stu, only that Rey is no more a Mary Sue than him. There isn't anything about her character that cannot be explained by examining her background. Again, fans exaggerate things, often to ridiculous levels.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2016/01/04/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-not-a-mary-sue/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/
birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/04/25/for-the-last-time-rey-is-not-a-mary-sue

#3. Stop making excuses for those people. Nobody taking an even-handed, objective critical approach to TLJ would give the film the lowest possible score. This is simply a bunch of irrationally angry fans venting and engaging in nonconstructive behavior. Some people are probably pissed because Rian Johnson didn't validate their pet theories. Others are probably still sore over the old EU material getting de-canonized into "Legends" and simply want to crap all over anything Star Wars made under the Disney umbrella. Others still (probably a small chunk) are just doing it for laughs, or for vague political reasons ("Something, something, SJWs. Something, something, feminists."), or are simply bandwagoning because it's now cool in some circles to hate Star Wars. But regardless of whatever reasons for the needless and undeserved review bombing of TLJ and general hate for it, this is not a half-star film. Anybody that says it is is clearly exaggerating. In fact, it goes beyond exaggeration, because it's not a bad film. It's not even a mediocre film. It's an an entertaining and beautifully-crafted film. I don't think it was perfect, but it was definitely enjoyable.