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Forums - Movies & TV - Top 5 Things I Disliked About SW:TLJ

superchunk said:

2. Luke's training in force before he started doing basic stuff was minimal as well. Basically identical where they both were just guided to 'use the force', reach out with feelings, etc. There is nothing crazy here. Her fighting Kylo in the last movie was not force specific, but a whole lot of other items. She demonstrated in that movie that she can fight very well. Anakin's pod racing proves that without training force can be used to greatly improve their reactions. On top of that, as I pointed out above, Kylo is emotionally and mentally unstable. He just killed his father in a significantly powerful emotional action. He also was wounded in such a way that very likely would have killed or at least taken out anyone else. Clearly all of that was a major factor in her ability to very briefly get an edge on him. She is very powerful, just as Yoda was or other past powerful Jedi. There is nothing she's doing that is out of the realm of possibility for her. Just people being narrow-minded and not following the full story. I honestly think that if she was male, there would be less bitching. Damn good to see girl power in this movie. Silly to conclude there could be no super powerful female jedi. Girls need superheros too.

This statement and attitude are insulting to women.  It is not girl power that is the issue, it is bad characterization and lazy writing that undercut Rey.  If all you need to care about a character is a superficial trait that is a narrow minded viewpoint.  I loved Leia, Luke, and Han for their distinct personalities and skills that aided them in their struggles, not race or sex.  

Growing up two of my favorite movie series were Alien and Aliens alongside Terminator 1&2.  Both had women I connected with because it didn't shy from their challenges giving cheap shortcuts.  They were women, and aspects such as motherhood played a role in their stories, but they weren't defined by it.  In real life women have struggles all the time and are not bailed out by being chosen ones who can do anything with ease.  Condescending to us with lesser heroes who can never fail or lose because we're so delicate is off putting.

If you want to understand how patronizing this is, think of the times older people try to be "hip" using internet memes to cringe effect.  You cannot force a character on people, it is the "Poochy Effect".



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55%

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/



Nymeria said:
superchunk said:

2. Luke's training in force before he started doing basic stuff was minimal as well. Basically identical where they both were just guided to 'use the force', reach out with feelings, etc. There is nothing crazy here. Her fighting Kylo in the last movie was not force specific, but a whole lot of other items. She demonstrated in that movie that she can fight very well. Anakin's pod racing proves that without training force can be used to greatly improve their reactions. On top of that, as I pointed out above, Kylo is emotionally and mentally unstable. He just killed his father in a significantly powerful emotional action. He also was wounded in such a way that very likely would have killed or at least taken out anyone else. Clearly all of that was a major factor in her ability to very briefly get an edge on him. She is very powerful, just as Yoda was or other past powerful Jedi. There is nothing she's doing that is out of the realm of possibility for her. Just people being narrow-minded and not following the full story. I honestly think that if she was male, there would be less bitching. Damn good to see girl power in this movie. Silly to conclude there could be no super powerful female jedi. Girls need superheros too.

This statement and attitude are insulting to women.  It is not girl power that is the issue, it is bad characterization and lazy writing that undercut Rey.  If all you need to care about a character is a superficial trait that is a narrow minded viewpoint.  I loved Leia, Luke, and Han for their distinct personalities and skills that aided them in their struggles, not race or sex.  

Growing up two of my favorite movie series were Alien and Aliens alongside Terminator 1&2.  Both had women I connected with because it didn't shy from their challenges giving cheap shortcuts.  They were women, and aspects such as motherhood played a role in their stories, but they weren't defined by it.  In real life women have struggles all the time and are not bailed out by being chosen ones who can do anything with ease.  Condescending to us with lesser heroes who can never fail or lose because we're so delicate is off putting.

If you want to understand how patronizing this is, think of the times older people try to be "hip" using internet memes to cringe effect.  You cannot force a character on people, it is the "Poochy Effect".

You highlighted the one part of my comment that was focused on the very first line of the OP #2. My final line was my own postulation that most people's gripes on Rey are more on her being female than the actual character.

The rest of my much larger comment focuses on her characterization and how it makes sense when you take it into context of the rest of the saga. 



superchunk said:
Nymeria said:

This statement and attitude are insulting to women.  It is not girl power that is the issue, it is bad characterization and lazy writing that undercut Rey.  If all you need to care about a character is a superficial trait that is a narrow minded viewpoint.  I loved Leia, Luke, and Han for their distinct personalities and skills that aided them in their struggles, not race or sex.  

Growing up two of my favorite movie series were Alien and Aliens alongside Terminator 1&2.  Both had women I connected with because it didn't shy from their challenges giving cheap shortcuts.  They were women, and aspects such as motherhood played a role in their stories, but they weren't defined by it.  In real life women have struggles all the time and are not bailed out by being chosen ones who can do anything with ease.  Condescending to us with lesser heroes who can never fail or lose because we're so delicate is off putting.

If you want to understand how patronizing this is, think of the times older people try to be "hip" using internet memes to cringe effect.  You cannot force a character on people, it is the "Poochy Effect".

You highlighted the one part of my comment that was focused on the very first line of the OP #2. My final line was my own postulation that most people's gripes on Rey are more on her being female than the actual character.

The rest of my much larger comment focuses on her characterization and how it makes sense when you take it into context of the rest of the saga. 

Nah, the character just sucks. At least, Luke had some training, if minimal, to use the force. Rey didn't. And Luke doesn't fly the Falcon as well as Han Solo either. Rey can do anything and better than anyone else.



Lawlight said:
superchunk said:

You highlighted the one part of my comment that was focused on the very first line of the OP #2. My final line was my own postulation that most people's gripes on Rey are more on her being female than the actual character.

The rest of my much larger comment focuses on her characterization and how it makes sense when you take it into context of the rest of the saga. 

Nah, the character just sucks. At least, Luke had some training, if minimal, to use the force. Rey didn't. And Luke doesn't fly the Falcon as well as Han Solo either. Rey can do anything and better than anyone else.

How was Luke's training any different than hers? Obi Wan talked to him very minimally (mins/hour maybe) before he was blocking shots blinded and calling his light saber back to himself in ESB. Then Luke spent another very small amount of time with Yoda where even right before he left he was still full of negativity, whining, and always assuming he'd fail at everything he tried.

Fact is, people are forget / forgive what happened in OT but call out all kinds of crazy shit in all other newer movies.

Her character is fine, its the shit show of "fans" perceptions on what a jedi should or should not be that is the problem. Her growth is in reality, no different than Luke.



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Farsala said:

I give you 5 more but not with as much writing.

1. Super Leia - She's been known to be strong in force since RotJ. Its shouldn't be surprising that in 30+ years she could use the force to pull / push ... which in zero gravity makes sense. Surviving is also meh as Kylo survived a massive shot from Chewy's bow gun in TFA.

2. Lack of lightsaber battle between anyone important. - I'd put ANH/ESB in the same amount of light saber wielding as TLJ.

3. It's Star Wars but 90% of the movie is between 2 ships despite the longest runtime. I like more planets. - Personal preference.


4. People seem to say it is a high risk movie, but they still won't take high enough risks with deaths or even loss of limbs with the good guys like with Luke losing hand, Obi Wan in first movie and Anakin limbs. Luke only just "dies" - Did you not watch ANH? or RotJ? His death is a combination of these elements in past movies. I was expecting a loss of a hand as well since it was the staple of the 2nd movie. But, there was an cycle of loss in this movie in that the entire resistance is on the verge of collapse along with jedi/sith.


5. The force in general has become more casual, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next movie a random good guy all of a sudden uses the force like Finn or Poe. - The force was found in many people historically but died off due to no one out looking for them. How is it a surprise that a kid can do little things? What is surprising is that there are not more untrained people trying to do good with very basic force abilities.

Edit: Came up with a better one

6: No meaningful/strong villain

I: Darth Maul (he lost/died)

II: Dooku (he lost, almost died)

III: Dooku,Emperor, Anakin (lost, won, lost/almost died)

IV: Vader (lost/almost died)

V: Vader (won overall)

VI: Vader, Emperor (lost/redeemed, lost/died... didn't do shit honestly why is no one comparing his death to Snoke / Kylo's losses)

VII: Kylo Ren (he loses) okay.. (Kylo lost to insurmountable odds)

VIII: Kylo Ren (he lost again) and a few minutes of Snoke (also lost) (Kylo overall won, but lost little battles also due to emotion/mental state more than anything else)

IX: Kylo Ren again... (Spoiler: he's gonna lose) (I'm pegging him for redemption and a return of Snoke... something that will finally demonstrate who the hell this guy actually is... remember that story from Palpatine to Anakin...)

Edited above...



well...felt like a drag to me. Nothing was memorable. Phasma was such a forgettable character and just ended up like that...sheesh. Finn was wasted. Poe's character meant nothing after that opening scene heroics. Snoke's character was ridiculously handled with.



superchunk said:
Lawlight said:

Nah, the character just sucks. At least, Luke had some training, if minimal, to use the force. Rey didn't. And Luke doesn't fly the Falcon as well as Han Solo either. Rey can do anything and better than anyone else.

How was Luke's training any different than hers? Obi Wan talked to him very minimally (mins/hour maybe) before he was blocking shots blinded and calling his light saber back to himself in ESB. Then Luke spent another very small amount of time with Yoda where even right before he left he was still full of negativity, whining, and always assuming he'd fail at everything he tried.

Fact is, people are forget / forgive what happened in OT but call out all kinds of crazy shit in all other newer movies.

Her character is fine, its the shit show of "fans" perceptions on what a jedi should or should not be that is the problem. Her growth is in reality, no different than Luke.

One thing we do have to keep in mind with these things, is that movies can only ever give you so much character development time on screen, when you're trying to get everything into a 1.5-3 hour product. There's a lot to get through, and only so much time to do it. I think the main issue here in regard to Rey, compared to say Luke, is that with Luke, you got to see him struggle. Yes, he quickly progressed in the end, because you gotta quickly progress to stack up to the bad guy in the runtime of your movie(s), but he had his share of hardships getting there. Yoda's (little) training came hard to him, Vader toyed with him before taking a lucky shot and removing Luke's hand. Rey pretty much has no external struggle yet in any of these movies. The one time anything was put in her path that she wasn't instantly at least on par with, was Snoke, who was then quickly disposed of. 

Rey shows up on the scene and is basically power personified. Say what you want about how little training Luke had....Rey had NO training, aside from Luke being like "yo, if I pretend to give a fuck for 2 seconds, will you leave me alone?" And mind you, that's in the second movie, after she's already showed herself to be ridiculously impressive. In Luke's first movie, he really didn't do shit until the very end when he destroyed the Death Star, which took him several tries, as well as assistance from Han and Chewie so he didn't get his ass blown to hell himself. In Rey's first movie, she displays herself to be a master pilot, adept at physical combat, quick mastery of mind control, resistance to mind reading, does her own mind reading, and overpowers a trained force user for pull of a lightsaber. 

So while you're not wrong that in principle this is all nothing new, when it comes to a character quickly ascending, there's still a difference in how it's handled. Still, like Nymeria, I actually liked Rey a lot in TFA, and pretty much excused all her ability as simply having been previously trained by someone before she was ditched in the middle of nowhere, before having her memory whipped or something. This however was unceremoniously dismissed in the TLJ, so.....now she's just OP cus....reasons. Force balance yo. Luke was playing hide and go seek with the force, so the force put all it's power in her to balance out Kylo. Snoke, Leia, and other force sensitives apparently didn't need to be taken into account with said balance, but whatever.

 

Edit: All that said, Rey is ultimately the least of my issues with this movie



Don't you guys remember The Force Awakens? I see people saying that Rey is an instant Jedi master just because. This isn't true at all. It was explained very clearly that the force was awakened in her because she touched Anakin/Luke's old lightsaber. She learned the force through osmosis. I tried to study in high school the same way by laying my head on my text books. It didn't work.



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If Anakin would have been a girl + pod racing when she was 8 years old = major shitstorm.

Reys skills didn't bother me. For example, she couldn't force-resist Snoke at all, and had bigger difficulties than Kylo while they were fighting with the Snokes guards.



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