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Forums - General Discussion - ‘I have no idea what I saw’: Pentagon admits to secret UFO hunting program

vivster said:
Kristof81 said:
I remember once, when me and my girlfriend were on holidays in Spain, just chilling at the pool, watching the night sky, we spotted something going slowly across the sky. She asked me what do I think it was and at fist I thought it was a plane, but because I couldn't see any flashing lights I thought it must have been a satellite and that's what I told her. Few moments later, this thing, which was going from west to east direction at constant speed, all the sudden stopped and in the blink of an eye, shoot off up towards north, travelling good 20 degrees, before completely disappearing. I asked her if she saw the same thing or was I just seeing things and she was as much freaked out as me. Obviously we've had no idea what it was and I'm not even trying to attempt to explain it, but all I know, it was eerie as hell and it changed my perspective on UFO's (not necessarily on aliens).

Obviously just a weather balloon.

Whether balloon that could cover 20 degrees on the sky in a second? It literally looked like a meteor, but going away from the earth.  



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Kristof81 said:
vivster said:

Obviously just a weather balloon.

Whether balloon that could cover 20 degrees on the sky in a second? It literally looked like a meteor, but going away from the earth.  

Yeah, one of the new fast weather balloons they're developing at Area 51.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
Zoombael said:

What kind of optical illusion would that be? What we see is the (hot) heat signature of an object flying at high speeds, tracked and recorded by an infrared camera.

Unless that heat signature also sends morse code that it's actually an alien ship I think it's wise to not jump instantly to the least likely conclusion. And yes, aliens are always the least likely conclusion. Just above pure magic, which is never the conclusion.

That doesn't answer my question. Not at all.

Btw. why are you so obsessed with aliens? Did they abduct you and performed weird experiments on you? >_>



Hunting Season is done...

Zoombael said:
vivster said:

Unless that heat signature also sends morse code that it's actually an alien ship I think it's wise to not jump instantly to the least likely conclusion. And yes, aliens are always the least likely conclusion. Just above pure magic, which is never the conclusion.

That doesn't answer my question. Not at all.

Btw. why are you so obsessed with aliens? Did they abduct you and performed weird experiments on you? >_>

I'm obsessed with people who do not think before they speak, which is basically everyone who talks about aliens and visiting earth.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
Zoombael said:

That doesn't answer my question. Not at all.

Btw. why are you so obsessed with aliens? Did they abduct you and performed weird experiments on you? >_>

I'm obsessed with people who do not think before they speak, which is basically everyone who talks about aliens and visiting earth.

While I admit its extremely unlikely there is nothing actually impossible about aliens visiting the earth. We know sophisticated life can evolve on a planet, we know life develops technology and we know you can travel between the stars. However unlikely it is still possible. I'm a sceptic myself but we shouldn't just dismiss the possibility. Stars move in space, when early man existed 70,000 years ago there was another star within a light year of earth (Scholz star). It was at the outer edge of our solar system. Over billions of years many stars have passed close to our solar system or even through it. Sub light speed is certainly possible for a spaceship. A star 4 light years away could be reached by a ship at half light speed in 8 years. With so many people believing the plain ridiculous like prophets flying about on horses or the sea parting we shouldn't lump the unlikely with the impossible.

Saying that it probably won't be a good thing if alien life turns up that could be the end of humanity pretty much immediately.  Personally I think we should keep our head down and not send out signals which aliens could receive. Maybe that is why we don't hear anything as most alien civilisations aren't stupid enough to broadcast their location. 



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vivster said:

This logic doesn't help anyone and only gives fuel to the crazies. It's about probabilities here. Some probabilities are too low to be even considered. Saying "nothing is 100% sure" is not helping anyone and is not driving us forward. It's basically not making a point at all. Yes the possibility of Aliens stumbling upon earth is not absolute zero, but it's as close to zero as it can possibly get. And at some point you have to round numbers to make any sense.

Saying that it's not 100% sure gives the impression that both opinions are equally valid, which they are not. One is backed by numbers and logic and the other is based on wishes and hot air. It's the same tactic radical media is using. They invite 2 climate scientists with opposing opinions as if they are equally valid, completely ignoring that one of the opinions is heavily supported by science and the other is not. It gives a false picture of duality and does a disservice to science as a whole.

Saying that it could be true is not progressing the discussion. It takes it into circles and spreads misinformation. The chances aren't 50:50, they aren't 1:100, they aren't even 1:10000000000. The odds are so low that they become scientifically insignificant and not worth to pursue and waste resources on it. Crazies who put out their theories that have zero backing from science need to be shot down instantly with hard numbers. 99% is not doing that, it's just fueling their delusions. That's why smart people say "it never happened" and get on with their lives because they are bound to be mathematically correct.

 

As for numbers decreasing, this is false hope again. Most people don't realize how small or big those numbers actually are. 70 years or 90 lightyears might as well be zero in the scale of the universe. And that does not even include the odds of life actually developing and then also being in the exact same time frame. As years increase it actually becomes less and less likely to be visited by a species that picked up our signal, because by the time they reach us we're most likely not even here anymore. Humans will most likely not even exist anymore by the time our first electromagnetic transmissions reach the edge of our own galaxy. It would take 100000 years for the signal to leave the Galaxy. That's just one single galaxy out of trillions. And it's not even a big one. To reach the next Galaxy it's another 2.5 million lightyears. Modern humans have lived for about 20000 years. In that time frame you cannot even travel through a quarter of our own galaxy assuming you can even do it at light speed.

So not only would those aliens have to be residents of our own galaxy, they would also have to be pretty close to our solar system. It's safe to say that there probably is not any developed life right now in our own solar system. The next star system is 4 lightyears away. Now think of how big the chances are that there is actually life and then multiply those chances that it has also been alive within the last 20000 years within this billion years old universe.

People need to know those numbers and most people who do believe that aliens visited us are completely unaware of them and would instantly agree if someone explained to them the actual probabilities. The odds aren't increasing from 1% to 2%. They are progressing in about the same speed as a microbe on a marathon track. Nobody would watch that, because there is no way we will ever see that microbe arrive at its goal.

I feel a bit uneasy arguing with you because I believe in science not in religion or in fantasies so I'm in a position where I must disagree with you while fundamentally agreeing... Just saying, to make this clear.

In my humble opinion you are as extreme in the scientific side of things are those so called "crazies" are in their position of defending fantasies.

The problem is that science is concerned with objective truth, not opinions or wishes.

Let me say this: Unicorns are (and I think we agree) 100% NON existing, not 99% not 99.9999999% but a clear cut 100% of Nope, they don't exist. Because there is no scientific logic or sense in imagining that an animal has magical powers because magic does not exist. Magic is simply what people in the past have invented to explain some phenomena they could not understand also magic helped fuel their fantasies. Only science looks at the universe and attempts to explain it objectively, through experiment and methodology.

But in order to say that we are 100% certain there is no intelligent life in the universe or that if there was that it is 100% certain they cannot visit us is short sighted because we simply don't know what they are, what they want and most importantly what they are capable of.

The universe is absolutely huge as you say but your mistake is to assume alien life has the same technology as we do. In that case it's pretty much unthinkable that they could have EVER visited us. You are very insistent on that but you have no idea how advanced they could be yet you are absolutely sure they cannot visit us because we cannot visit them at our level of technological evolution. Exactly as if an ant talking to another ant about humans and they would say to each other how humans could never understand mathematics or split the atom cause "we ants cannot so there is 0% chance humans can either". It's short sighted to assume that the best we can do is the most anyone else can.

Ask pretty much ANY astrophysicist how much they reckon they know about the universe and most if not all will tell you that while they know way more than the average human, that their knowledge must be close to almost nothing compared to all there is to know about the universe.

As for the crazies just cause they have no logic in what they say or just cause they lack scientific knowledge does not mean that the issue must be completely ruled out as non existent at all. Cause that is short-sighted too. As far as I'm concerned religion is crazy too but that does not mean that we know 100% that there is nothing after physical life and for example investigating what NDE's are, in no way validates the ideas of the crazies and their religion.

And there is a difference between the possibility of E.T. intelligence existing and unicorns: Scientists of SETI and other such organizations have millions of dollars in funding but what funding do you see for the search of unicorns? None. Ask yourself why. Maybe because the difference of a 99% chance of E.T. not existing and 100% for unicorns is more relevant than you think and is enough to justify genuine scientific curiosity and funding. If 99% and 100% were the same as you argue, then why aren't scientists investigating the existence of unicorns too since extra terrestrial intelligent life advanced enough to visit us is just as impossible as the existence of unicorns?

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 22 December 2017

vivster said:
McGilliguts said:
Aliens are real and they are already here, of course. Please let me explain. An ancient alien civilization that has existed for billions of years and has technology far beyond ours has already spread throughout the entire universe via self replicating drones. These drones monitor developments throughout the universe and report back information, that the aliens can act upon if necessary. These surveillance drones are what the pilots saw. Right now earth is still much too primitive to be of any interest, but at some point a delegation if aliens will arrive to make contact or possibly just destroy the planet outright.

I hope those drones discovered how to move beyond lightspeed as well as communication speeds above lightspeed or else the whole theory collapses on itself.

i personally believe that maybe all ufos people have seen are craft developed in secret by the military, but 

"I hope those drones discovered how to move beyond lightspeed"

to say that because we currently do not understand how this could work its impossible seems a bit unreasonable



CrazyGamer2017 said:
vivster said:

This logic doesn't help anyone and only gives fuel to the crazies. It's about probabilities here. Some probabilities are too low to be even considered. Saying "nothing is 100% sure" is not helping anyone and is not driving us forward. It's basically not making a point at all. Yes the possibility of Aliens stumbling upon earth is not absolute zero, but it's as close to zero as it can possibly get. And at some point you have to round numbers to make any sense.

Saying that it's not 100% sure gives the impression that both opinions are equally valid, which they are not. One is backed by numbers and logic and the other is based on wishes and hot air. It's the same tactic radical media is using. They invite 2 climate scientists with opposing opinions as if they are equally valid, completely ignoring that one of the opinions is heavily supported by science and the other is not. It gives a false picture of duality and does a disservice to science as a whole.

Saying that it could be true is not progressing the discussion. It takes it into circles and spreads misinformation. The chances aren't 50:50, they aren't 1:100, they aren't even 1:10000000000. The odds are so low that they become scientifically insignificant and not worth to pursue and waste resources on it. Crazies who put out their theories that have zero backing from science need to be shot down instantly with hard numbers. 99% is not doing that, it's just fueling their delusions. That's why smart people say "it never happened" and get on with their lives because they are bound to be mathematically correct.

 

As for numbers decreasing, this is false hope again. Most people don't realize how small or big those numbers actually are. 70 years or 90 lightyears might as well be zero in the scale of the universe. And that does not even include the odds of life actually developing and then also being in the exact same time frame. As years increase it actually becomes less and less likely to be visited by a species that picked up our signal, because by the time they reach us we're most likely not even here anymore. Humans will most likely not even exist anymore by the time our first electromagnetic transmissions reach the edge of our own galaxy. It would take 100000 years for the signal to leave the Galaxy. That's just one single galaxy out of trillions. And it's not even a big one. To reach the next Galaxy it's another 2.5 million lightyears. Modern humans have lived for about 20000 years. In that time frame you cannot even travel through a quarter of our own galaxy assuming you can even do it at light speed.

So not only would those aliens have to be residents of our own galaxy, they would also have to be pretty close to our solar system. It's safe to say that there probably is not any developed life right now in our own solar system. The next star system is 4 lightyears away. Now think of how big the chances are that there is actually life and then multiply those chances that it has also been alive within the last 20000 years within this billion years old universe.

People need to know those numbers and most people who do believe that aliens visited us are completely unaware of them and would instantly agree if someone explained to them the actual probabilities. The odds aren't increasing from 1% to 2%. They are progressing in about the same speed as a microbe on a marathon track. Nobody would watch that, because there is no way we will ever see that microbe arrive at its goal.

I feel a bit uneasy arguing with you because I believe in science not in religion or in fantasies so I'm in a position where I must disagree with you while fundamentally agreeing... Just saying, to make this clear.

In my humble opinion you are as extreme in the scientific side of things are those so called "crazies" are in their position of defending fantasies.

The problem is that science is concerned with objective truth, not opinions or wishes.

Let me say this: Unicorns are (and I think we agree) 100% NON existing, not 99% not 99.9999999% but a clear cut 100% of Nope, they don't exist. Because there is no scientific logic or sense in imagining that an animal has magical powers because magic does not exist. Magic is simply what people in the past have invented to explain some phenomena they could not understand also magic helped fuel their fantasies. Only science looks at the universe and attempts to explain it objectively, through experiment and methodology.

But in order to say that we are 100% certain there is no intelligent life in the universe or that if there was that it is 100% certain they cannot visit us is short sighted because we simply don't know what they are, what they want and most importantly what they are capable of.

The universe is absolutely huge as you say but your mistake is to assume alien life has the same technology as we do. In that case it's pretty much unthinkable that they could have EVER visited us. You are very insistent on that but you have no idea how advanced they could be yet you are absolutely sure they cannot visit us because we cannot visit them at our level of technological evolution. Exactly as if an ant talking to another ant about humans and they would say to each other how humans could never understand mathematics or split the atom cause "we ants cannot so there is 0% chance humans can either". It's short sighted to assume that the best we can do is the most anyone else can.

Ask pretty much ANY astrophysicist how much they reckon they know about the universe and most if not all will tell you that while they know way more than the average human, that their knowledge must be close to almost nothing compared to all there is to know about the universe.

As for the crazies just cause they have no logic in what they say or just cause they lack scientific knowledge does not mean that the issue must be completely ruled out as non existent at all. Cause that is short-sighted too. As far as I'm concerned religion is crazy too but that does not mean that we know 100% that there is nothing after physical life and for example investigating what NDE's are, in no way validates the ideas of the crazies and their religion.

And there is a difference between the possibility of E.T. intelligence existing and unicorns: Scientists of SETI and other such organizations have millions of dollars in funding but what funding do you see for the search of unicorns? None. Ask yourself why. Maybe because the difference of a 99% chance of E.T. not existing and 100% for unicorns is more relevant than you think and is enough to justify genuine scientific curiosity and funding. If 99% and 100% were the same as you argue, then why aren't scientists investigating the existence of unicorns too since extra terrestrial intelligent life advanced enough to visit us is just as impossible as the existence of unicorns?

 

"The universe is absolutely huge as you say but your mistake is to assume alien life has the same technology as we do"

 

exactly, it just seems really arrogant to me given that we don't know A LOT... maybe at some point we'll discover that a lot of the underlying axioms we hold about these things aren't giving us a proper picture



o_O.Q said:

exactly, it just seems really arrogant to me given that we don't know A LOT... maybe at some point we'll discover that a lot of the underlying axioms we hold about these things aren't giving us a proper picture

Actually we have been confronted many times in history with this human arrogance proven wrong again and again. One of the best examples of this is many centuries ago when we were absolutely certain that the earth was flat, at the center of the universe and all the stars including the sun revolved around our important ass. And we were so abysmally arrogant about this that just questioning this was considered heresy. You had to be mad to question something so obvious as the earth being flat and at the center of the universe, there is 0% chance that earth was not the center of everything, impossible, unthinkable, mad, blasphemous etc...

Being too certain of something, never questioning beliefs or paradigms is showing a lack of wisdom in my opinion.

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 22 December 2017

Being ruled by aliens might be an improvement over being ruled by corporations and plutocrats.

So, lets give it a shot and being welcoming. If they want to eat people lets start with politicians.

Last edited by Technarchy - on 23 December 2017