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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Breath of the Wild is a great game, but a not-so-great Zelda experience (Mild spoilers)

AngryLittleAlchemist said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
Glad you enjoyed it!

Yes, it's unlike Zelda 1992-2013. No, I don't think that's a bad thing per se.

I mean, I adore A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and The Wind Waker. I love that modern Zelda formula where you get a particular item in a themed dungeon, and with that item defeat the dungeon boss. It's a great formula that's made The Legend of Zelda the best video series of all time.

But a Zelda game doesn't need to conform to that standard to be great. The strength of BotW comes from its emergent gameplay, and from the way it encourages players to experiment with tool sets, enemy AI, and the game's physics and chemistry engines. It's all about freedom: freedom to experience a story or skip it; freedom to finish the dungeons; freedom to explore optional shrines; freedom to cook, or hunt, or collect, or ride a horse into the sunset.

BotW's dungeons and boss fights are on the weak side -- minus Hyrule Castle, which is spectacular -- but it makes up for those flaws in so many other ways.

I'm not going to talk about my opinion on the game, but let me interject a bit here. I understand that Wright's first few paragraphs are literally him saying that this isn't like other Zelda games and that he wants that Zelda charm, but a reply like this just feels like a way to shut down criticism. Wright's complaints don't really have as much to do with it not being Zelda enough and more to do with the fact that the substitutes for those Zelda elements are lacking in quality. At least in the way he explained it. These criticisms would stand with or without the gaming being a Zelda game. Being part of that franchise just makes more comparisons validated.

Yes, I understand. That's why my response answers both: 1) a Zelda game doesn't need to conform to the patterns and tropes of the last two decades of The Legend of Zelda to be a good Zelda game; and 2) the emergent gameplay and freedom of choice/mobility more than offsets what Wright has identified as weaknesses. 

Wright questions the quality of dungeons and shrines. In my post I agree they're relatively weak, but mitigated by other things. Wright criticizes the story, or, more accurately, his emotional attachment to the story. In my rant on freedom, I mention the story and how players can absorb as much or as little as they want -- a huge plus. He complains about shrines; I mention they're entirely optional. He laments that tools/items don't have a more pivotal role to play in dungeons; I argue that to "experiment with tool sets, enemy AI, and the game's physics and chemistry engines" is the true mark of BotW's genius.



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Wright said:
OTBWY said:

Well, my response was that whatever RPG's elements they both have, it really doesn't matter because the two games are separate with one being open world and the other linear. That means that whatever RPG elements BotW has, it isn't necessary to beat the game. In Zelda II, it absolutely is needed to beat the game. That is why the RPG part of the argument went that way. The tutorial area argument is a moot point since I already explained that since you can beat the game right after that area.

I guess I didn't see the distinction to be that abroad between both. Especially when I still feel like they're the two odd entries in the franchise, and with other noticeable similarities despite the strinking different approach to its linearity/non-linearity (The return of Ganon, Zelda's state, regaining lives through sleeping in towns/item usage, attack techniques, overworld being full with towns, citizens and dungeons, optional sidequests for similar rewards, unscripted and avoidable overworld encounters, and some more examples). We're probably looking at these two from different approachs, though.

I should fully play the first Zelda one of these days.

You definitely should. It's a classic. It is also pretty much as I said, it is the inspiration of the first game that made Aonuma take this approach.



Veknoid_Outcast said:

Yes, I understand. That's why my response answers both: 1) a Zelda game doesn't need to conform to the patterns and tropes of the last two decades of The Legend of Zelda to be a good Zelda game; and 2) the emergent gameplay and freedom of choice/mobility more than offsets what Wright has identified as weaknesses. 

Wright questions the quality of dungeons and shrines. In my post I agree they're relatively weak, but mitigated by other things. Wright criticizes the story, or, more accurately, his emotional attachment to the story. In my rant on freedom, I mention the story and how players can absorb as much or as little as they want -- a huge plus. He complains about shrines; I mention they're entirely optional. He laments that tools/items don't have a more pivotal role to play in dungeons; I argue that to "experiment with tool sets, enemy AI, and the game's physics and chemistry engines" is the true mark of BotW's genius.

I mean, something doesn't offset something just because you say it does. BOTW is great, but I wouldn't say it's open ended nature off sets the terrible dungeons, in practical terms they don't really conflict with each other and there's no reason we can't have both. Your points would require that these things be mutually exclusive(they're not) or that they're small little nitpicks in an otherwise great game(I really wouldn't say they are). Fact is, at least for the first few hours of the game most people are going to be attracted by shrines and see what's up with them. If they suck than that taints their experience. And them being optional doesn't off set that, because everything that Wright has argued is questionable about the game is an "option", but it takes up so much of the game's content that the game's quality would go down if you completely ignored it. At least if we believe the shrines and dungeons and other criticisms Wright has listed to be valid, than we would essentially find ourselves in a lose-lose situation. Sure, we can just skip the content, but that's going to detract just as much value out of the game as having the mediocre content.

Last edited by AngryLittleAlchemist - on 04 December 2017

AngryLittleAlchemist said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:

Yes, I understand. That's why my response answers both: 1) a Zelda game doesn't need to conform to the patterns and tropes of the last two decades of The Legend of Zelda to be a good Zelda game; and 2) the emergent gameplay and freedom of choice/mobility more than offsets what Wright has identified as weaknesses. 

Wright questions the quality of dungeons and shrines. In my post I agree they're relatively weak, but mitigated by other things. Wright criticizes the story, or, more accurately, his emotional attachment to the story. In my rant on freedom, I mention the story and how players can absorb as much or as little as they want -- a huge plus. He complains about shrines; I mention they're entirely optional. He laments that tools/items don't have a more pivotal role to play in dungeons; I argue that to "experiment with tool sets, enemy AI, and the game's physics and chemistry engines" is the true mark of BotW's genius.

I mean, something doesn't offset something just because you say it does. BOTW is great, but I wouldn't say it's open ended nature off sets the terrible dungeons, in practical terms they don't really conflict with each other and there's no reason we can't have both. Your points would require that these things be mutually exclusive(they're not) or that they're small little nitpicks in an otherwise great game(I really wouldn't say they are). Fact is, at least for the first few hours of the game most people are going to be attracted by shrines and see what's up with them. If they suck than that taints their experience. And them being optional doesn't off set that, because everything that Wright has argued is questionable about the game is an "option", but it takes up so much of the game's content that the game's quality would go down if you completely ignored it. At least if we believe the shrines and dungeons and other criticisms Wright has listed to be valid, than we would essentially find ourselves in a lose-lose situation. Sure, we can just skip the content, but that's going to detract just as much value out of the game as having the mediocre content.

I attempted to answer Wright's criticism in a concise and interesting way. I didn't unpack every single element of the game, because it should go without saying I enjoyed the shrines, the story, the dungeons. Why would I justify the greatness of a game by producing a laundry list of things that aren't fun to do?

Anyway, if you're interested in a more complete breakdown of the game, check this out: http://www.vgchartz.com/article/267757/the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-ns/



BoTW is ultimate Zelda experience imo, everything Miyamoto wanted it to be in the first place and wasn't possible till now.



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By the way, here's some thoughts I wrote a while back about how I'd personally improve this new Zelda formula for the next game, seems fitting for this thread:

- Bring back traditional dungeons (At least 8 of them. 4 dungeons isn't enough for a map that big).

- Less shrines (40-50 at most), but they're bigger and don't share the same visuals anymore. Make the puzzles actually challenging.

- Make exploration more rewarding, because tbh once you realize that all you'll find are either Koroks or Shrines (Or disposable weapons), it becomes rather boring imo.

- Make voice acting optional if possible. I think Zelda worked better without it, I liked reading the story at my own pace and it was part of the charm for me. Light BotW spoilers: The flower lady cutscene wouldn't have been half as funny to me if it was voice acted, the exaggerated reactions are what made it good.

- More enemy variety. Each area of the map should have it's own exclusive enemies (Like Skulltulas and Poes in dense forest areas, for example).

- Less "copy-paste". What I mean by this is that I want more unique content in the overworld. Finding a labyrinth doesn't feel special when you discover that there are 3 more of them at the other corners of the map, only slightly different. Same thing for enemy camps.

- Main menu: Bring back the title screen, music (Fairy's Theme) and more save slots.

- Put music everywhere again. To avoid music getting annoying/repetitive, just make longer and/or dynamic themes (Kinda like how Mario music changes on the fly when going underwater). For example, if you have a theme for Hyrule Field, make it change depending on the weather/enemies/time/riding a horse/etc.

- Make the map a bit smaller, but add caves and underwater sections to the game.

- Completely revamp the weapon durability or get rid of it (Shields aren't damaged when shield surfing, weapons last longer, make it possible for us to repair them with certain items, etc).

- Give us the green tunic at the start of the game again. If people don't want to use it they can simply wear something else, since armor is likely staying for the next game.

- Good non-shrine quests, since most of them were just "Bring me X stuff and I'll give you something in return".

Of course this is all my opinion, sorry for the giant wall of text =P

Last edited by Vini256 - on 04 December 2017

I agree that it wasn't very Zelda. Even since Zelda 1, full-fledged dungeons were a thing. I would hardly call the Divine Beasts dungeons, and making Hyrule Castle 100% climbable ruined what could have been an epic climax. I wanted all my work to be cashed into a 3 hour expedition into Hyrule Castle, but all I got was a brisk climb followed by four cheap dungeons shooting Ganon's weak point for massive damage.



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Veknoid_Outcast said:

I attempted to answer Wright's criticism in a concise and interesting way. I didn't unpack every single element of the game, because it should go without saying I enjoyed the shrines, the story, the dungeons. Why would I justify the greatness of a game by producing a laundry list of things that aren't fun to do?

Anyway, if you're interested in a more complete breakdown of the game, check this out: http://www.vgchartz.com/article/267757/the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-ns/

Fair enough. I'm not saying you should state an opinion you don't have, or that your opinion is wrong. Mind you, I agree with Wright in some ways but not others. I just think that a majority of his criticism was pretty fair and not really about it being non-traditional, and I think the idea that the content being optional is what makes BOTW so great is a slippery slope. It can come off as an excuse particularly when literally almost all of the game's content is optional, so that's a lot of the game that can be rendered irrelevant for criticism. 

Okay, I'll check it out later : ) 



Wyrdness said:
Zelda moving away from dungeons and all is what people have been asking for for ages and that's what BOTW delivers a template for the series to not be reliant on that structure as the games started becoming about how good are the dungeons.

BOTW gladly sorted that problem out as now the series is open to a host of new mechanics and approaches that it can benefit from as opposed to being dictated by dungeons even many of the incarnations of Hyrule were wasted as it was just a train ride for the next dungeon stop. The dungeons always felt separate from the world of Hyrule were as in BOTW the dungeons and shrines feel a very much part of it, the world of Hyrule became the focus for the adventure now and not the dungeons and that imo makes BOTW a far better Zelda game than any other.

When I think of the first three Zelda games I don't think about the dungeons I think of the over worlds. They're all about over world exploration.



I agree. But I feel the team did the best they could to retain some "Zelda" while rethinking conventions and taking inspiration from other developers.

I hope that Nintendo does find a better medium between the two styles in the sequel which Aonuma said, they're already working on. I just want clever and themed dungeons back, but with special items again that can be used in multiple ways. (Basically the Runes but with more variety and surprise) And a more engaging story. It doesn't have to be Final Fantasy but I dunno, BOTWs story after getting off the Plateau was kind of not very genuine to me.

The Divine beasts as dungeons were not satisfying to me. All I want for Nintendo to do is re-evaluate how they could insert themed dungeons into the game while not making the game so linear. Shrines are cool, but they're no replacement for dungeons. And I know a lot of friends who just completed half of them, missing out on a lot of Zelda's main appeal (puzzle solving). 

Last edited by Ljink96 - on 04 December 2017