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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Xenoblade Chronicles 2 Reviews - (83) Metacritic (83) Opencritic

Mine finally arrived, gonna be my first Xenoblade JRPG.



             

Nintendo Switch FC: SW-6340-7643-4233 aka Renji

Steam: Lee Roid

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spemanig said:
Barkley said:

You're allowed to dislike tropes, mechanics and styles that are generally unique to a Japanese developed game. Don't try and turn this into a "racist" thing.

It is, though. Again, substitute Japanese with black or white. If you have problems with tropes, mechanics, or styles, talk about it in those terms. No one talks about vast open world filled with busy work and say "wow, this game is way too European."

It is not, because "Japanese" is a recognised style of game. So much so it even has a genre, "JRPG". Is the term Japanese RPG racist? Is disliking Japanese RPG's racist? The Japanese have no issue using the term JRPG, thus they should have no issue with someone disliking a game because it's too "Japanese", as it's an accurate and accepted terminology used to describe certain games, and I've never seen anyone have an issue with this other than you, so no one actually from Japan themselves.

Substituting black or white is completely misguided as it is not a recognised and accepted term used to describe a certain style of game.



Barkley said:
spemanig said:

It is, though. Again, substitute Japanese with black or white. If you have problems with tropes, mechanics, or styles, talk about it in those terms. No one talks about vast open world filled with busy work and say "wow, this game is way too European."

It is not, because "Japanese" is a recognised style of game. So much so it even has a genre, "JRPG". Is the term Japanese RPG racist? Is disliking Japanese RPG's racist? The Japanese have no issue using the term JRPG, thus they should have no issue with someone disliking a game because it's too "Japanese", as it's an accurate and accepted terminology used to describe certain games, and I've never seen anyone have an issue with this other than you, so no one actually from Japan themselves.

Substituting black or white is completely misguided as it is not a recognised and accepted term used to describe a certain style of game.

No, it's not. "Japanese" isn't a genre, JRPG is. And the use of the term JRPG has been criticized for decades because it doesn't mean anything. There is no "style" of game specific to the JRPG genre. When Undertale and Dragons Dogma can be said to be part of the same genre, and people do have valid reasons to argue that point, the categorization has major issues.

There are plenty of JRPGs that don't get criticized for being "too Japanese." Fire Emblem is not a JRPG, but is subject to similar criticisms. Senran Kagura and Dead or Alive are subject to the same criticisms, and aren't even RPGs. Dark Souls and Metal Gear Solid don't get these criticisms, and they are as Japanese as any JRPG. Earthbound, Pokemon, and Super Mario RPG are some of the most renowned JRPGs of all time, and none of them are populated by the tropes, styles, or mechanics that make people criticize games for being "too Japanese." So when someone says a game is "too Japanese," don't pretend they are criticizing the entire genre or something as if there is any blanket criticism that can be made to such a diverse set of games.

Substituting black or white isn't an accepted term because it would be clearly viewed as racially ignorant. If there was a sudden boom of RPGs made in Africa that gained mass popularity, BRPG wouldn't suddenly gain some use.



spemanig said:
Barkley said:

It is not, because "Japanese" is a recognised style of game. So much so it even has a genre, "JRPG". Is the term Japanese RPG racist? Is disliking Japanese RPG's racist? The Japanese have no issue using the term JRPG, thus they should have no issue with someone disliking a game because it's too "Japanese", as it's an accurate and accepted terminology used to describe certain games, and I've never seen anyone have an issue with this other than you, so no one actually from Japan themselves.

Substituting black or white is completely misguided as it is not a recognised and accepted term used to describe a certain style of game.

No, it's not. "Japanese" isn't a genre, JRPG is. And the use of the term JRPG has been criticized for decades because it doesn't mean anything. There is no "style" of game specific to the JRPG genre. When Undertale and Dragons Dogma can be said to be part of the same genre, and people do have valid reasons to argue that point, the categorization has major issues.

There are plenty of JRPGs that don't get criticized for being "too Japanese." Fire Emblem is not a JRPG, but is subject to similar criticisms. Senran Kagura and Dead or Alive are subject to the same criticisms, and aren't even RPGs. Dark Souls and Metal Gear Solid don't get these criticisms, and they are as Japanese as any JRPG. Earthbound, Pokemon, and Super Mario RPG are some of the most renowned JRPGs of all time, and none of them are populated by the tropes, styles, or mechanics that make people criticize games for being "too Japanese." So when someone says a game is "too Japanese," don't pretend they are criticizing the entire genre or something as if there is any blanket criticism that can be made to such a diverse set of games.

Substituting black or white isn't an accepted term because it would be clearly viewed as racially ignorant. If there was a sudden boom of RPGs made in Africa that gained mass popularity, BRPG wouldn't suddenly gain some use.

I understand where you're coming from, but the Japanese don't care one tiny bit about this sort of thing. This entire discussion would come off as foreign and strange to them. 

IMO JRPG refers to specific games with turn based battles, and story driven gameplay. Xenoblade, and Tales of are a mix of JRPG and Action RPG. 



Goodnightmoon said:
curl-6 said:

XCX had moments of greatness and some truly amazing highlights. In retrospect though it also had its fair share of shortcomings, which I was more forgiving of at the time cos, well, it was dark days of the Wii U and any food tastes great to a starving man.

The world of Mira with its breathtaking landscapes, numerous secrets, and believable yet alien ecology was and still is a stunning achievement and a joy to explore. Getting a skell for the first time and later taking flight were awe-inspiring moments. 

On the flip side though, I spent the whole game waiting for the story to take off and it never really did. There was also way too much tedious filler, and while the music could be great at times, it could also be awful.

That's a terrible excuse, not only makes your word less believeble from now on but also it doesn't make sense, the lack of games doesn't make you feel like a game is better, maybe if you spend years playing shitty games then it would make sense that a good game feels like a masterpiece, but WiiU, despite the lack in numbers never really lacked in quality, it had very good games, so this feels like you are just forgetting what you liked about it and changing your opinion as a consequence, don't blame the WiiU cause it has nothing to do with this and I highly doubt you have played any other better open world game this gen besides BoTW.

Agreed, there were a number of amazing games on Wii U, Xenoblade X was one of them. Not buying the whole "starved for a good game" thing. Tokyo Mirage Sessions was another that came out shortly after, and then Zelda after that. Prior to Xeno X we also had Bayo/2 combo of perfection and Fatal Frame V was somewhere in there too. Could have latched on to any of those games.

Last edited by bigtakilla - on 02 December 2017

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Cerebralbore101 said:
spemanig said:

No, it's not. "Japanese" isn't a genre, JRPG is. And the use of the term JRPG has been criticized for decades because it doesn't mean anything. There is no "style" of game specific to the JRPG genre. When Undertale and Dragons Dogma can be said to be part of the same genre, and people do have valid reasons to argue that point, the categorization has major issues.

There are plenty of JRPGs that don't get criticized for being "too Japanese." Fire Emblem is not a JRPG, but is subject to similar criticisms. Senran Kagura and Dead or Alive are subject to the same criticisms, and aren't even RPGs. Dark Souls and Metal Gear Solid don't get these criticisms, and they are as Japanese as any JRPG. Earthbound, Pokemon, and Super Mario RPG are some of the most renowned JRPGs of all time, and none of them are populated by the tropes, styles, or mechanics that make people criticize games for being "too Japanese." So when someone says a game is "too Japanese," don't pretend they are criticizing the entire genre or something as if there is any blanket criticism that can be made to such a diverse set of games.

Substituting black or white isn't an accepted term because it would be clearly viewed as racially ignorant. If there was a sudden boom of RPGs made in Africa that gained mass popularity, BRPG wouldn't suddenly gain some use.

I understand where you're coming from, but the Japanese don't care one tiny bit about this sort of thing. This entire discussion would come off as foreign and strange to them. 

IMO JRPG refers to specific games with turn based battles, and story driven gameplay. Xenoblade, and Tales of are a mix of JRPG and Action RPG. 

What makes you so sure? Japan is an incredibly traditional, conservative, nationalistic culture. What makes you certain that most of them wouldn't feel uncomfortable that people were associating their culture with such negative connotations? Most of the things people are criticizing in cases like these are associated with otaku culture, which isn't something most of the population in Japan like or want to be associated with.

And I want to be clear that I'm not trying to get into the semantics of what a JRPG is. That's not what this is about, and "too Japanese" isn't a criticism only or even mostly levied at JRPGs. I'm just saying to call a spade a spade. People need to stop hiding behind inaccurate, offensive generalizations. If you have a specific criticism, criticize it specifically.



spemanig said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I understand where you're coming from, but the Japanese don't care one tiny bit about this sort of thing. This entire discussion would come off as foreign and strange to them. 

IMO JRPG refers to specific games with turn based battles, and story driven gameplay. Xenoblade, and Tales of are a mix of JRPG and Action RPG. 

What makes you so sure? Japan is an incredibly traditional, conservative, nationalistic culture. What makes you certain that most of them wouldn't feel uncomfortable that people were associating their culture with such negative connotations? Most of the things people are criticizing in cases like these are associated with otaku culture, which isn't something most of the population in Japan like or want to be associated with.

And I want to be clear that I'm not trying to get into the semantics of what a JRPG is. That's not what this is about, and "too Japanese" isn't a criticism only or even mostly levied at JRPGs. I'm just saying to call a spade a spade. People need to stop hiding behind inaccurate, offensive generalizations. If you have a specific criticism, criticize it specifically.

I attended a presentation by a middle aged woman married to a Japanese man. She specifically went over this type of thing. Japan is almost 100% Japanese, so racial issues are almost never brought up or discussed over there. Most Japanese people don't really care what foreigners think of them. False stereotypes from other countries are looked at mostly as jokes, and not seen as offensive over there. 

I've read about three or four negative reviews on the game so far, and three positive reviews. The only review that generalizes is the Stevivor review, but that guy only wrote for a half a page. Could you find and point out these negative generalizations from  one of the negative reviews? 



Cerebralbore101 said:
spemanig said:

What makes you so sure? Japan is an incredibly traditional, conservative, nationalistic culture. What makes you certain that most of them wouldn't feel uncomfortable that people were associating their culture with such negative connotations? Most of the things people are criticizing in cases like these are associated with otaku culture, which isn't something most of the population in Japan like or want to be associated with.

And I want to be clear that I'm not trying to get into the semantics of what a JRPG is. That's not what this is about, and "too Japanese" isn't a criticism only or even mostly levied at JRPGs. I'm just saying to call a spade a spade. People need to stop hiding behind inaccurate, offensive generalizations. If you have a specific criticism, criticize it specifically.

I attended a presentation by a middle aged woman married to a Japanese man. She specifically went over this type of thing. Japan is almost 100% Japanese, so racial issues are almost never brought up or discussed over there. Most Japanese people don't really care what foreigners think of them. False stereotypes from other countries are looked at mostly as jokes, and not seen as offensive over there. 

I've read about three or four negative reviews on the game so far, and three positive reviews. The only review that generalizes is the Stevivor review, but that guy only wrote for a half a page. Could you find and point out these negative generalizations from  one of the negative reviews? 

I'm not pointing at specific reviews as I don't read or watch reviews before playing games I know I'm going to play. They are filled with spoilers. I'm mostly talking about comments being used here in this thread, and the implication that they've been used in reviews. I'm not going to point those out for obvious reasons.



Yeah, without this obvious racism against Japan this game would have scored atleast 98 on Metacritic.



"The rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

- Single-player Game

spemanig said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I attended a presentation by a middle aged woman married to a Japanese man. She specifically went over this type of thing. Japan is almost 100% Japanese, so racial issues are almost never brought up or discussed over there. Most Japanese people don't really care what foreigners think of them. False stereotypes from other countries are looked at mostly as jokes, and not seen as offensive over there. 

I've read about three or four negative reviews on the game so far, and three positive reviews. The only review that generalizes is the Stevivor review, but that guy only wrote for a half a page. Could you find and point out these negative generalizations from  one of the negative reviews? 

I'm not pointing at specific reviews as I don't read or watch reviews before playing games I know I'm going to play. They are filled with spoilers. I'm mostly talking about comments being used here in this thread, and the implication that they've been used in reviews. I'm not going to point those out for obvious reasons.

Just to jump into this conversation, I think one of the main differences between comparing "Japanese" and "Black" is that one is an intercultural comparison and the other is an intracultural comparison.

See, "Japanese" culture, like you've said, is different than American culture in many ways and they often have different sets of values and norms to go along with that. This intercultural divide extends right into the fundamentals of storytelling and how certain things are portrayed. Often, when recommending anime to people, I try to recommend anime that is more in line with Western cultural expectations, norms and storytelling than Japanese, because it can often be difficult for people to adapt to and accept these differences. Some Japanese productions build up a bit of a wall between what the Japanese tend to appreciate and what Western audiences tend to appreciate. You see this in many Japanese movies which have a tendency to be very slow, focusing on different aspects than Hollywood, which can often ostracize western audiences. To say something is "too Japanese" is generally a fairly poor way of stating that certain aspects are designed to appeal more to Japanese audiences which may leave western audiences behind (however, a good reviewer would spell this out instead of saying something as broad stroke and unintuitive as "too Japanese")

With complaints that something is too "black", you start bringing intracultural comparisons into things which creates a distinct separation where one may not exist. I am, for example, aware of fundamental differences between Bollywood, Japanese and Hollywood film making, but the difference between "black" and "white" film making at a core level isn't really as clear. While a film like Get Out obviously utilizes the experiences and world views of a black individual, at a technical or fundamental level it doesn't utilize a distinct tool set from "white" films. I believe this is largely due to them both being American cinema and thus sharing the same film making language, even if they are using it to say different things.

To say that something is "too black" wouldn't often be taking issue at things that are "lost in translation" as is often seen in things that are "too Japanese", but often instead taking issue with what is being said, which often takes on more racist undertones.