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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Playstation 5 & Xbox Two are going to be Monsters!

 

surprised by 2700u's performance?

yes 46 51.69%
 
no 43 48.31%
 
Total:89
Intrinsic on 03 November 2017
HoloDust said:

Actually yes.

You're forgeting one "small" detail - in addition to all the juice you need to render in higher resolution, devs, as always, want more power to make improvements in visuals - otherwise you end up with same visuals in higer res...which is not the goal of new gen.

Now, I've been through this many, many times, on this very site no less, and it's astounding to me that lot of people don't realise that 1080p to 4K jump (4x) is larger then anything industry's been since 3D kicked in - and certainly much larger then 2.25x of 720p to 1080p of 7th to 8th gen (as for actual numbers on how GPUs behave in 1080p vs 4K (it's goes from 2.2x to 3x), Anandtech's bench is good place to check out).

So...as a dev you NEED power to compensate for resolution and you WANT power to improve visuals - in 7th to 8th gen, out of those 8x (or 10x) some went for resolution, rest for improving visuals. If they manage only that much (8x-10x) in 9th gen, and devs need more for resolution, that leaves them with less for improvements - that is why I'm saying 15TFLOPS should be minimum, when in fact it should be more like 20TFLOPS - anything less then that and visual improvements will suffer greatly if they opt for native 4K - and, in my opinion, 4K is just not worth it for them to sacrifice visuals, so I'm hoping for good enough leap.

Ok, let me try and give you a very loose example.

Imagine that of the 1.8TF GPU power in the PS4 what is actually used to render 2M pixels is 1TF and then .8TF is used for everything else in the render pipeline. Now if geometry and shaders remain the same but you want to up the rez from 2M pixels to 8M pixels. You will need to bump up that 1TF pixel allotmentment to 4TF. for everything else, even with a 4 times bump there, you end up with 3.2 TF (and you don't need a 4 times bump for that cause eg. you dont need more GPU to render 3M polygons simply cause you upped the resolution). That brings the total to 7.2TF.

So basically, with 7.2TF as an upper limit, you can take any PS4 game today runninng at 1080p and run it at 4k with similar or scaled up effects.

Now lets accomodate for the fact that devs will wanna use better and more demanding features like better shaders, effects, lightning or even more complext geometry. You can tack on another 2-3TF for that. And thats still pushing it. Things like better textures are more of a memory size and bandwith issue.

When you look at the tasks a GPU carries out; everything does not scale up simply because you are going from 2M to 8M pixels. 



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DonFerrari on 03 November 2017
Pemalite said:
JRPGfan said:

But what surprises me is that this 15watt APU has 1.63 Teraflop of GPU performance.

It is actually 1.664 Teraflops.
640 shaders * 2 Instructions per clock * 1,300mhz clock = 1.664 Teraflops.

And this isn't a fully unlocked chip either, apparantly. A full chip has 11CU's.
11*64 = 704 * 2 Instructions per clock * 1,300mhz clock = 1.83 Teraflops.

HOWEVER. If the CPU is being taxed then the GPU will not be clocking that high as Power and Thermal limits come into play.

JRPGfan said:

Sony could basically do a Playstation 4 "switch" version with one of these!

No. It couldn't.

shikamaru317 said:

Will it though, with the push for native 4k next gen? I'd have to look at some more benchmarks, but I'm not sure if there is any current GPU that uses GDDR5 instead of GDDR5X that can play current games at native 4K on ultra settings. And next gen consoles will be pushing for even better graphics than the current PC ultra settings most likely, just like PS4/XB1 pushed for better graphics than 2011-2012 PC games on Ultra. 

No. It won't be. GDDR5 is old and outdated.
GDDR6 is the replacement.

You need a ton of bandwidth and fillrate for 4k... Even high-end PC GPU's with HBM2 and GDDR5X isn't a guarentee for 4k 60fps across every title.

JRPGfan said:

Why not? it would be a huge step up from the core's the PS4 are currently useing.

Heck its beating the Intel equivalent at simular power levels (low power).

Unless you think PS5/XB2 need more than just a mobile ryzen cpu?

Ryzen will be old and outdated by the time the Playstation 5 and Xbox 4 drops.

Microsoft and Sony will choose whatever CPU core is the most cost/energy and size efficient for their needs.
AMD should be iterating upon Ryzen on a yearly cadence going forward... So by 2020 we could have 7nm and Ryzen 3/4.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

From the first , Sony was planning to use Intel's  Haswell for PS4.

Then it has changed AMD's Bulldozer.

And 7nm Ryzen core is more smaller than 28nm Jaguar core.

Bullshit.

Sony was never planning to use Haswell for the Playstation 4.

Sony never used AMD's Bulldozer for the Playstation 4.


shikamaru317 said:

In 2020 I definitely think they could release their consoles with some of these mobile Ryzen CPU cores, a 10-12 tflop GPU, 16 GB of RAM, and a 2-4TB hard drive for $400 while at least breaking even, most definitely for $500. They might not use the cores from this exact CPU though, AMD tends to offer refinements to their architectures about every year and a half, which offer a small boost in performance, so we are more likely see some CPU cores from one those refinements since they will be newer tech at the time the consoles are being designed. 

With 16GB of main system ram being the sweet spot for PC right now in 2017, I would not be surprised if 24-32GB ends up being the target for next gen in 2019/2020.
By then I would expect 10nm DRAM chips to be the norm.

Well can you please explain why or by how much in 2020 we couldn't have a PS4-like portable?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

AlfredoTurkey on 03 November 2017
spurgeonryan said:
Are you guaranteeing there will be an Xbox 2?

Considering they're releasing a brand new version of Xbox One, I'd say yes. If they were going to leave, they'd have left by now imo.



Slimebeast on 03 November 2017

Computer tech is slumping due to technical limitations, so there wil be 8 years between console generations now. We just have to accept that graphics tech aint advancing as fast as ut used to be,.



Intrinsic on 03 November 2017
DonFerrari said:

Well can you please explain why or by how much in 2020 we couldn't have a PS4-like portable?

well, first thing to consider is that unless you expect every dev to make a patch for their games that make them render at a lower rez natively, the hardware in said PS4 portable should be at identical performance wise to whats in the PS4slim. Because right now, while the PS4 supports 720p, the games are rendered natively at resolutions above that.

So basically a PS4port will need to have identical hardware inside it, at least on the CPU, GPU and RAM size front...... and it would take some real great trickery to fit 8GB of GDDR5 fast ram in the form factor of a handheld.

More importantly, you want to get the power draw of an APU thats currently at around 90W down to around 10-20W. I doubt going from 14/16nm to 7/10nm will accomplish that. And by accomplish that we are talking power an APU, RAM, Storage, radios and a screen.



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Ljink96 on 03 November 2017

Wait so Microsoft is thinking of releasing an Xbox Two after the Scorpio? Jeez.



DonFerrari on 03 November 2017
Intrinsic said:
DonFerrari said:

Well can you please explain why or by how much in 2020 we couldn't have a PS4-like portable?

well, first thing to consider is that unless you expect every dev to make a patch for their games that make them render at a lower rez natively, the hardware in said PS4 portable should be at identical performance wise to whats in the PS4slim. Because right now, while the PS4 supports 720p, the games are rendered natively at resolutions above that.

So basically a PS4port will need to have identical hardware inside it, at least on the CPU, GPU and RAM size front...... and it would take some real great trickery to fit 8GB of GDDR5 fast ram in the form factor of a handheld.

More importantly, you want to get the power draw of an APU thats currently at around 90W down to around 10-20W. I doubt going from 14/16nm to 7/10nm will accomplish that. And by accomplish that we are talking power an APU, RAM, Storage, radios and a screen.

Not talking about same HW, but comparable... but thanks for the explanation.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Intrinsic on 03 November 2017
DonFerrari said:

Not talking about same HW, but comparable... but thanks for the explanation.

I'm not talking about same hardware either, but talking about comparable hardware.

The issue is that we are talking consoles here.

You either have the exact same hardware (albeit smaller if built on a smaller fabrication process) or you have something that can emulate the hardware, which usually requires you have something that is significantly more powerful.

And if you want this thing to support all the games on the PS4 now, then you have 3 options.

  1. the devs are going to go and do some extensive work on all their games to make them support some new exotic hardware
  2. you brute force your way through it by having much much much more powerful hardware in the handheld than whats in the PS4 now so you can emulate it so the devs won't have to do anything
  3. you basically take the APU, memory config (size and bandwith) that we have in the PS4slim today and somehow get all that to fit in something about the size of the NS. with a power draw no more than 15-17W unless you want to play untethered for 30mins at a time.

    I'm sorry, but thats just impossible in 2-3yrs when 7/10nm chipsenter the market. Maybe in 2023-2025 when we may have 3/4nm chips.


Pemalite on 04 November 2017
DonFerrari said:

Well can you please explain why or by how much in 2020 we couldn't have a PS4-like portable?

In 2020 it could be possible.
But it's not currently possible with today's technology, we can get "close enough" though.

The biggest issue is going to be memory bandwidth... Mobile devices typically need to use low-voltage DDR, LPDDR4 isn't scaling high enough in clockrates to be a viable alternative to the GDDR5 in the Playstation 4 just yet.

AMD and nVidia are slowly making use/getting around limited bandwidth via technologies like Delta Colour Compression and Tiled Rasterization with better culling... But there is still 100GB/s or more of bandwidth to make up for.

Things might change once LPDDR5 becomes common place.




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asqarkabab on 04 November 2017

yeah monsters without compelling games like this generation



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