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First charges filed in Mueller investigation

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Russian Roulette "winner"?

Paul Manafort 26 45.61%
 
Michael Flynn 10 17.54%
 
Jared Kushner 3 5.26%
 
Don Jr. 2 3.51%
 
Hillary Clinton 13 22.81%
 
Tony Podesta 3 5.26%
 
Total:57
Locknuts said:

 

That's probably overblowing it. I'll wait to find out why he lied. Like Zanten said, it could have been a public perception issue.

Seems like wishful thinking on the part of yourself, CNN and other MSM sites that this will end Trump's presidency.

I appreciate that you're holding out for more detail before making a decision. I'd point out to you though that during many of these kinds of investigations, they redact certain details that they know, because revealing it might impede the case down the road. I'm sure that's common knowledge, but I think it's important in this case. There's a common argument that, "If they knew about Russia collusion, where's the proof?" But what that argument ignores is the sheer amount of time and manpower enlisted by organizations like the FBI to conduct thorough investigations. I'm not saying they're saints or that they don't waste time, but there is a lot that they hide in order to get to the bottom of criminal activity like this. 

And it's not necessarily Flynn's charges, or why he lied that should be the focus. Rather, his admission of guilt is what lends credence to the idea that Mueller has information that isn't public knowledge. If it were as simple as lying about the events mentioned in the filings, that would be something you could possibly withstand in court. But Mueller had other worse charges that he gave up in exchange for information Flynn could provide on other criminal activities. 

That's the most important part. You don't enter a guilty plea because you lied a couple of times about the Russian contacts we've heard so far. You enter 'not guilty' and defend yourself in court, because they can be explained away if you try hard enough. The fact that he and Papadopoulos didn't do that suggests Mueller has far more information than we know. 

Further proof of that is when Mueller frequently requests email correspondences from different members of the Trump White House. Mueller already has the emails of consequence, but if the WH hands over "all" their emails and conveniently "lose" certain ones, it gives Mueller opportunities to lay new charges. 

Keep an open mind but also remember how the process works! :)



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The question is what else Flynn has offered apart from his plea deal.



But her emails.

Sorry but I'm actually still hearing this from Trump and the right. The "Hey, look over there" campaign needs to stop.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
But her emails.

Sorry but I'm actually still hearing this from Trump and the right. The "Hey, look over there" campaign needs to stop.

Haven't seen "but her e-mails" in a while. Except from people trying to defend their poor choice in who they voted for.

The new thing is "but uranium one" which is amusing. Seeing as how Fox news is the biggest supporter of that conspiracy, and also the one that debunked it.



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Bandorr said:
SpokenTruth said:
But her emails.

Sorry but I'm actually still hearing this from Trump and the right. The "Hey, look over there" campaign needs to stop.

Haven't seen "but her e-mails" in a while. Except from people trying to defend their poor choice in who they voted for.

The new thing is "but uranium one" which is amusing. Seeing as how Fox news is the biggest supporter of that conspiracy, and also the one that debunked it.

Fox News and their viewers seem to ignore Shepard Smith despite him being their most balanced asset.  Oh, wait...that's probably why they ignore him.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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Locknuts said:
monocle_layton said:

 

 

 

What is there to speculate? Nem summarizes it perfectly - whatever the hell he's hiding isn't gonna be pretty. It's common sense at this point. No more running to blaming Obama or the liberal media. Some shady people have done shady things, and this looks like Watergate 2.0 . Target the smaller fish until you're able to take out the shark - expect all of this to snowball sooner or later.

That's probably overblowing it. I'll wait to find out why he lied. Like Zanten said, it could have been a public perception issue.

Seems like wishful thinking on the part of yourself, CNN and other MSM sites that this will end Trump's presidency.

Wow, sneaking in another diss at the end  - nice.

 

As an American I'm interested in the truth. Since day 1 I said I'd support Trump if he proved to be a decent president. Guess what? He isn't.

 

This case will either sizzle out or explode very quickly. Similar to what you are doing, I'm gonna wait for all the information to release. However, I still find it likely that it's not gonna be pretty.

 

Hillary had her field day with the media for what she did, and now it's Trump's turn I suppose.



Locknuts said:
monocle_layton said:

 

 

 

What is there to speculate? Nem summarizes it perfectly - whatever the hell he's hiding isn't gonna be pretty. It's common sense at this point. No more running to blaming Obama or the liberal media. Some shady people have done shady things, and this looks like Watergate 2.0 . Target the smaller fish until you're able to take out the shark - expect all of this to snowball sooner or later.

That's probably overblowing it. I'll wait to find out why he lied. Like Zanten said, it could have been a public perception issue.

Seems like wishful thinking on the part of yourself, CNN and other MSM sites that this will end Trump's presidency.

The thing is, my theory has two fairly hefty flaws that would likely prove its undoing.

First, it's obviously using the information that's available to the public, and something Mueller has been very careful about it keeping quiet with regards to the movement and specifics of his investigation. This isn't just for funsies, either, as not only is his investigation pretty unpopular with the current administration, but some of those he's investigating could have significant wealth and/or connections that would make them hard to pin down. Being too open on how the investigation is progressing- what he has uncovered, who he's looking into- would only serve to weaken that investigation, as it would give its targets far too much advanced warning. Even Flynn's released statement is careful to skimp on certain details, because for the time being these are details the investigation's team wants to keep under wraps. My whole public perception theory is the best one I can present at this time, but even I know there are some gaping holes in my knowledge of the situation.

Second, while a simple public perception issue might explain away Flynn's behavior, (especially since it's pretty clear he had no idea his conversation had been recorded until months after he'd told his lies to the FBI,) it wouldn't explain why Mueller would offer him any kind of deal. To be clear here, Flynn's guilt was never in question, as both the statement he first made to the FBI, and the recorded conversation that contradicted it, were a matter of record. His confession would not be necessary to guarantee a conviction, all that would have been needed was anyone willing to prosecute him. So Mueller is only making this arrangement with Flynn because the man can offer something in return for leniency.

But what? Flynn wouldn't have much credibility in court if he were brought in as a witness for a trial against any of Trump's people, since- ironically- the lawyer defending said people could just point out that Flynn has a history of lying to the authorities. For that same reason, I don't believe that Mueller would be naive enough to simply take Flynn at his word, without any corroborating evidence because, again, FLYNN HAS A HISTORY OF LYING TO THE AUTHORITIES.

So, and this is just a pure guess on my part, I'm willing to bet Flynn either kept correspondence and documents from his work on Trump's campaign, and brief tenure in the administration. E-mails, memos, whatever, things he might have even held on to SPECIFICALLY as a form of insurance, in case he was ever looking at legal consequences. Iirc, his lawyer signaled a long while back that Flynn would 'testify' to the Senate Intelligence Committee in exchange for immunity, but the Senate Intelligence Committee made it clear they weren't offering any. And I'm also guessing that those documents point towards something that Mueller deems worth pursuing.

What could that be? No idea! =D



Zanten, Doer Of The Things

Unless He Forgets In Which Case Zanten, Forgetter Of The Things

Or He Procrascinates, In Which Case Zanten, Doer Of The Things Later

Or It Involves Moving Furniture, in Which Case Zanten, F*** You.

Flynn being able to get a plea bargain indicates that he could give Mueller dirt on someone above him in the chain of command.
And there are not many people above the National Security Adviser. That's pretty much Kushner, Pence and Trump.

And now there are reports that Mueller has subpoena'd Trump's financial records from Deutsche Bank. Trump's lawyers deny this, however. But they would do that regardless.



This is more in reference to "The Senate Intelligence Committee" than Mueller, but I still find it fascinating.

In a twist no one one would see coming. More shocking than anything Game of Thrones, or The Walking Dead has to offer.

"The Senate Intelligence Committee" is looking into Jill Stein. At least as far as asking her for documents go. With rumors suggesting a Russian connection.

-although she has hasn't commented on her twitter account. So it could be a rumor making the rounds on twitter and websites.

Based on a tweet stating (I haven't verified yet)
- Joined Mike Flynn at that Moscow celebration for RT
- Took part in Green Party 2016 debate, hosted on RT
- Joined Putin (and Nazarbayev!) in saying Ukraine's 2014 revolution was a "coup"
- Hired VP candidate who said the MH17 crash was a false flag against Russia

I could see why the rumors are suggesting a Russian connection.

Last edited by Bandorr - on 18 December 2017

  • Deadliest mass shooting by an individual in US history (10/01/2017)
  • Deadliest high school shooting in US history (02/14/2018)
  • Deadliest massacre of Jews in US history (10/27/2018)
  • Political assassination attempt of TWO former presidents(and 10+ other people)  (10/23/2018 - and beyond)

Jill Stein? Really?



“Some parents let their young kids win at games, but mine never did. I don't think it was because they were particularly competitive, they just wanted to teach me a valuable lesson. Life is mostly just learning how to lose.”