Quantcast
First charges filed in Mueller investigation

Forums - Politics Discussion - First charges filed in Mueller investigation

Russian Roulette "winner"?

Paul Manafort 26 45.61%
 
Michael Flynn 10 17.54%
 
Jared Kushner 3 5.26%
 
Don Jr. 2 3.51%
 
Hillary Clinton 13 22.81%
 
Tony Podesta 3 5.26%
 
Total:57
Zanten said:
Locknuts said:

That's what I mean: It's not going to end with Flynn. 

But I thought Trump fired Flynn for lying to Pence about contact with the Russians. Now they think someone close to Trump gave the order? 

The devil's kind of in the details on this one, but of course it feels like it's been a million years since the original Flynn scandal, so here we go! *clears throat*

The original reports to the public on Flynn's communications with Kislyak, and his lies to the Vice President on their content, came from the media. (At the time I believe it was rumored, but not confirmed, that he had also lied to the FBI, though my memory could be leading me astray there.) Obviously this caused a great deal of political pressure, and public scrutiny, with regards to Flynn's position and the possibility that he'd been compromised. Trump finally did finally reportedly ask for Flynn's resignation. Ultimately, though, he seemed more irritated at the leaks that had led to the news report than anything Flynn himself had done; Spicer at one point made it clear that Trump did not believe Mr Flynn had breached law, and his being let go was more an issue of 'trust.'

But okay, Trump asks for his resignation after news of the problem broke, all was well... until a little later, when it emerged that Trump had actually already known about Flynn's lie quite a few days prior, and did dick all about it. It was flagged for his attention by at-the-time acting attorney general Sally Yates, who discovered the issue and informed Trump about it, largely because there was a risk that the falsehoods could make Flynn vulnerable to blackmail by a foreign power.

To be more specific, the Department of Justice made their report to Trump about Flynn on January 26th; Trump gets around to telling Pence about it around 11 days later, as the matter was starting to heat up in the public eye. On February 8th, Flynn flatly denied discussing Sanctions with Russia in response to reports given by various media outlets, only to change his answer to 'I don't remember' on the 9th when it was revealed U.S. intelligence had actually recorded the call. His resignation finally hit on February 13th, soon after fresh reports from the media discussed his communications with Kislyak, and detailed that he had 'misled' the Vice President about them.

The timing of it raised more than a few eyebrows, and asked a rather clear question; Trump knew what Flynn had done weeks before he finally fired the guy for it. So did Trump fire Flynn because of what he had done, or because too many people found out about it?

It's not like Trump is slow to pull the trigger when it comes to letting people go. (Just look at how fast he fired Yates when she wouldn't immediately defend his travel ban.) And yet ultimately he took absolutely forever to get Flynn's resignation, which came right around the time it became clear that Flynn wasn't going to be able to weasel out of this, and public scrutiny was nearing its peak.

***

Now, this is speculation on my part, obviously, but Flynn's statement would actually fit pretty well with how things went down back in February. Trump obviously wouldn't have had a 'trust issue' with Flynn if the man's actions were carried out at the behest of Trump's transition team. He would have known about it before Yates even made the report, and would know that Flynn was indeed loyal to him. As long as the press or public didn't get wind of it, both Flynn and Trump would have been better served just denying everything in the case of Flynn, and quietly sitting on the report without taking action in the case of Trump, which they both seemed prepared to do.

But then it got leaked to the press, and from there to the public, and finally Flynn's attempt to deny everything shriveled up in the face of the revelation the intelligence community actually had solid information on the details of his phone call. The situation ultimately became untenable; there would simply be no way to keep Flynn, with everyone KNOWING what he'd done, without raising some big questions about just why Trump was protecting him.

And so Trump finally asked for his resignation, but there were still loose ends. For one thing, there were agencies still digging into the details of just what Flynn had done, who he had done it for, etc, wanting to see just how deep the rabbit hole went. If said rabbit hole led to the doorstep of Trump's transition team or, God forbid, Trump himself... well, that would be REALLY bad for him. So Trump tried to quietly quash these efforts by, in at least one case, flatly telling Comey that he really hoped he'd just let Flynn go, and drop the investigation. Comey didn't, and Trump eventually fired him, a sequence of events that ironically led to the Mueller investigation, and brings us to where we are now.

Seems like Trump asked Flynn to speak with the Russians after he was elected President (December) which was Flynn's job at the time. The timing is so important that ABC news got it wrong (claimed that Trump gave the order as a candidate) which caused the stock market to drop. ABC has since made a correction:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

I'm not sure why Flynn felt the need to lie to Pence and the FBI but lying seems to be the only thing he's actually done wrong.

I'm not sure what all the hysteria is about. Don't get me wrong: Trump's a dick, but this is a bit silly as far as I can tell. 



Around the Network
Locknuts said:
Zanten said:

The devil's kind of in the details on this one, but of course it feels like it's been a million years since the original Flynn scandal, so here we go! *clears throat*

The original reports to the public on Flynn's communications with Kislyak, and his lies to the Vice President on their content, came from the media. (At the time I believe it was rumored, but not confirmed, that he had also lied to the FBI, though my memory could be leading me astray there.) Obviously this caused a great deal of political pressure, and public scrutiny, with regards to Flynn's position and the possibility that he'd been compromised. Trump finally did finally reportedly ask for Flynn's resignation. Ultimately, though, he seemed more irritated at the leaks that had led to the news report than anything Flynn himself had done; Spicer at one point made it clear that Trump did not believe Mr Flynn had breached law, and his being let go was more an issue of 'trust.'

But okay, Trump asks for his resignation after news of the problem broke, all was well... until a little later, when it emerged that Trump had actually already known about Flynn's lie quite a few days prior, and did dick all about it. It was flagged for his attention by at-the-time acting attorney general Sally Yates, who discovered the issue and informed Trump about it, largely because there was a risk that the falsehoods could make Flynn vulnerable to blackmail by a foreign power.

To be more specific, the Department of Justice made their report to Trump about Flynn on January 26th; Trump gets around to telling Pence about it around 11 days later, as the matter was starting to heat up in the public eye. On February 8th, Flynn flatly denied discussing Sanctions with Russia in response to reports given by various media outlets, only to change his answer to 'I don't remember' on the 9th when it was revealed U.S. intelligence had actually recorded the call. His resignation finally hit on February 13th, soon after fresh reports from the media discussed his communications with Kislyak, and detailed that he had 'misled' the Vice President about them.

The timing of it raised more than a few eyebrows, and asked a rather clear question; Trump knew what Flynn had done weeks before he finally fired the guy for it. So did Trump fire Flynn because of what he had done, or because too many people found out about it?

It's not like Trump is slow to pull the trigger when it comes to letting people go. (Just look at how fast he fired Yates when she wouldn't immediately defend his travel ban.) And yet ultimately he took absolutely forever to get Flynn's resignation, which came right around the time it became clear that Flynn wasn't going to be able to weasel out of this, and public scrutiny was nearing its peak.

***

Now, this is speculation on my part, obviously, but Flynn's statement would actually fit pretty well with how things went down back in February. Trump obviously wouldn't have had a 'trust issue' with Flynn if the man's actions were carried out at the behest of Trump's transition team. He would have known about it before Yates even made the report, and would know that Flynn was indeed loyal to him. As long as the press or public didn't get wind of it, both Flynn and Trump would have been better served just denying everything in the case of Flynn, and quietly sitting on the report without taking action in the case of Trump, which they both seemed prepared to do.

But then it got leaked to the press, and from there to the public, and finally Flynn's attempt to deny everything shriveled up in the face of the revelation the intelligence community actually had solid information on the details of his phone call. The situation ultimately became untenable; there would simply be no way to keep Flynn, with everyone KNOWING what he'd done, without raising some big questions about just why Trump was protecting him.

And so Trump finally asked for his resignation, but there were still loose ends. For one thing, there were agencies still digging into the details of just what Flynn had done, who he had done it for, etc, wanting to see just how deep the rabbit hole went. If said rabbit hole led to the doorstep of Trump's transition team or, God forbid, Trump himself... well, that would be REALLY bad for him. So Trump tried to quietly quash these efforts by, in at least one case, flatly telling Comey that he really hoped he'd just let Flynn go, and drop the investigation. Comey didn't, and Trump eventually fired him, a sequence of events that ironically led to the Mueller investigation, and brings us to where we are now.

Seems like Trump asked Flynn to speak with the Russians after he was elected President (December) which was Flynn's job at the time. The timing is so important that ABC news got it wrong (claimed that Trump gave the order as a candidate) which caused the stock market to drop. ABC has since made a correction:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

I'm not sure why Flynn felt the need to lie to Pence and the FBI but lying seems to be the only thing he's actually done wrong.

I'm not sure what all the hysteria is about. Don't get me wrong: Trump's a dick, but this is a bit silly as far as I can tell. 

Why does anyone lie?



Nem said:
Locknuts said:

Seems like Trump asked Flynn to speak with the Russians after he was elected President (December) which was Flynn's job at the time. The timing is so important that ABC news got it wrong (claimed that Trump gave the order as a candidate) which caused the stock market to drop. ABC has since made a correction:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

I'm not sure why Flynn felt the need to lie to Pence and the FBI but lying seems to be the only thing he's actually done wrong.

I'm not sure what all the hysteria is about. Don't get me wrong: Trump's a dick, but this is a bit silly as far as I can tell. 

Why does anyone lie?

I don't know or care. I just want to know why Flynn lied in this case.



Locknuts said:
Nem said:

Why does anyone lie?

I don't know or care. I just want to know why Flynn lied in this case.

Ok... i'll answer. People lie when they got something to hide. There's no other reason.



Flynn lies to FBI ---> Donald Trump ask Comey for his loyalty ----> Trump fires Comey ----> Flynn Resigns ----> Flynn caught lying, gets a guilty plea ----> Trump tweeted saying that he knew Flynn lied to FBI ---> Trump personal lawyer says he wrote that tweet..

ROFLMFAO

Last edited by deskpro2k3 - on 03 December 2017

Around the Network
Nem said:
Locknuts said:

I don't know or care. I just want to know why Flynn lied in this case.

Ok... i'll answer. People lie when they got something to hide. There's no other reason.

'To hide something' is too simplistic and vague. Hide what exactly?  This is why I complain that facts get conflated with speculation on this site too often.



Locknuts said:
Nem said:

Ok... i'll answer. People lie when they got something to hide. There's no other reason.

'To hide something' is too simplistic and vague. Hide what exactly?  This is why I complain that facts get conflated with speculation on this site too often.

Well... of course, we can only speculate. So, all we can say is that there is something serious enough to lie to the FBI.

Now what it is exactly? Who knows? But it can't be good.



Locknuts said:

Seems like Trump asked Flynn to speak with the Russians after he was elected President (December) which was Flynn's job at the time. The timing is so important that ABC news got it wrong (claimed that Trump gave the order as a candidate) which caused the stock market to drop. ABC has since made a correction:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

I'm not sure why Flynn felt the need to lie to Pence and the FBI but lying seems to be the only thing he's actually done wrong.

I'm not sure what all the hysteria is about. Don't get me wrong: Trump's a dick, but this is a bit silly as far as I can tell. 

I can't say for certain why Flynn lied, but there are a few guesses are to why he might have.

One has to do with the possibility that he violated the Logan Act, something that in theory prohibits unauthorized private citizens from negotiating with countries that have a dispute with the U.S., but there are a lot of uncertainties to that. The Logan Act is actually a really OLD law, and I don't believe it's ever successfully convicted anyone, in part because this kind of thing doesn't happen very often. It's also rather vague, from a legal perspective, as it was written hundreds of years ago and hasn't gotten much of an update since. Because of that, it's uncertain whether Trump- who at the time wouldn't have actually been President, as it doesn't 'kick in' until his inauguration- would have even had the ability to authorize Flynn in the first place back in December.

A somewhat more likely reason could have had to do with public perception, and what was discussed. The flip side to the whole 'Russians helped flip the election in Trump's favor' thing was a concern that, once Trump took office, he would seek to lessen or even completely lift the various sanctions placed on them. Trump, it should be noted, has obviously opposed imposing sanctions on Russia in the first place, and delayed implementing the newest set of them for as long as he could manage before finally having to sign them in. The bill that implemented these sanctions even went to the added step of limiting Trump's executive authority over them, meaning if Trump wants to change the extent of sanctions on Russia at some point in the future, he needs Congress' approval to do so. This is a matter that is ironically bipartisan, as the bill had broad support from the Republicans as well as Democrats.

So when the question arose of whether Flynn discussed sanctions with Kislyak, saying 'no' could have been meant to try and assuage the concerns of both the public and the Republicans that Trump had any plans to loosen them. (Which has obviously backfired.) Admitting that they went to the Russians to reassure them when the Obama administration added new sanctions would have also served to lend the appearance that Trump was undermining what was, at the time, still the active administration before he had even taken office.



Zanten, Doer Of The Things

Unless He Forgets In Which Case Zanten, Forgetter Of The Things

Or He Procrascinates, In Which Case Zanten, Doer Of The Things Later

Or It Involves Moving Furniture, in Which Case Zanten, F*** You.

Locknuts said:
Nem said:

Ok... i'll answer. People lie when they got something to hide. There's no other reason.

'To hide something' is too simplistic and vague. Hide what exactly?  This is why I complain that facts get conflated with speculation on this site too often.

 

Nem said:
Locknuts said:

'To hide something' is too simplistic and vague. Hide what exactly?  This is why I complain that facts get conflated with speculation on this site too often.

Well... of course, we can only speculate. So, all we can say is that there is something serious enough to lie to the FBI.

Now what it is exactly? Who knows? But it can't be good.

 

 

What is there to speculate? Nem summarizes it perfectly - whatever the hell he's hiding isn't gonna be pretty. It's common sense at this point. No more running to blaming Obama or the liberal media. Some shady people have done shady things, and this looks like Watergate 2.0 . Target the smaller fish until you're able to take out the shark - expect all of this to snowball sooner or later.



monocle_layton said:
Locknuts said:

'To hide something' is too simplistic and vague. Hide what exactly?  This is why I complain that facts get conflated with speculation on this site too often.

 

Nem said:

Well... of course, we can only speculate. So, all we can say is that there is something serious enough to lie to the FBI.

Now what it is exactly? Who knows? But it can't be good.

 

 

What is there to speculate? Nem summarizes it perfectly - whatever the hell he's hiding isn't gonna be pretty. It's common sense at this point. No more running to blaming Obama or the liberal media. Some shady people have done shady things, and this looks like Watergate 2.0 . Target the smaller fish until you're able to take out the shark - expect all of this to snowball sooner or later.

That's probably overblowing it. I'll wait to find out why he lied. Like Zanten said, it could have been a public perception issue.

Seems like wishful thinking on the part of yourself, CNN and other MSM sites that this will end Trump's presidency.