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Catalonia declares independence. Puigdemont free to roam Belgium.

Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonia declares independence. Puigdemont free to roam Belgium.

Who do you support?

Spain 139 59.40%
 
Catalonia 95 40.60%
 
Total:234

Yeah, nobody is gonna win her, everyone's gonna lose.



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Tryklon said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Self determination by a majority, there is no proof independentists are a majority on Catalonia, right now catalonia is a country where probably most people want to stay with Spain and where independentists had been promised to become way richer now when that's a huge lie since they have to leave the EU and most of its exportations go to Spain, a thousand companies have been abandoning Catalonia this weeks. There hasn't been any democratic process to claim self determination, there hasn't been campaign for the YES and for the NO, only for the YES, pure manipulation.

Oh, and there is also Monarchy in many more countries like UK, Netherlands or Denmark, some of the most developed countries in the world, so what's your point?

 if that shamefully corrupt government of "Spain" is so certain the majority wants to be spanish, why did they not allow a fully authorized referendum?

Oh, let me guess... because they knew the yes would win! Thats it!

 

Because to allow a legal referendum you have to change the constitution and because the politic party governing Spain right now is highly conservative. Every single poll made in Catalonia before all this messy process said most people there didn't want to be independent, in fact when PSOE was in the govern years ago, before the economic crisis,  the vast majority of Catalonia (like +70% or so) didn't wanted an independent republic, just more autonomy. Now that Spain has less money and they don't like the actual government the govern of Catalonia want a conservative party to reform the constitution just for them and obviously that didn't happened, but PP is not Spain, politic parties come and go, independence is forever.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 27 October 2017

This is going to get very awkward very fast.



Love and tolerate.

Yeah reality is they should separate, Spain is holding them back



LadyJasmine said:
Yeah reality is they should separate, Spain is holding them back

I'm sure you are an expert on this

The reason why Catalonia its so developed is Spain, they have been industrializing and overprotecting Catalonia for centuries and now Catalonia wants to go with all that, but right now around 1300 companies have abandoned Catalonia to come to Spain and this is only the begining, they would abandon the EU which would result in a huge economic recession for many years. So yeah, "holding them back" yes, but holding them back from an economic disaster lol

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 27 October 2017

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Ka-pi96 said:
Good luck Catalonia!

This is all I can say considering I have no idea what this means despite it being all over the news, lol. 



No matter from what angle I look at it it seems to be along the same stupid populist lines as Brexit. "We want independence. What do we gain from it? We don't care because we're bored and need something to rally for!".

But yeah, good for them to "stick it to the man".

Meanwhile Palestine sits there and thinks to itself: "WTF?!"



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

dyremose said:
As everything this comes down to money and not liberty or cultural independence or whatever they might try and say. Catalonia is one of the richest regions in an otherwise rather poor country of Spain. In Italy the two richest regions are also trying to gain more autonomy or break off with their own country.. Gladly leaving an entire countries economy in the shitter while laughing all the way to the bank.. I hope the Spanish government hits down hard on these destabilisers..

At first glance it seems to be about money, but it isn't. Money doesn't want an independent Catalonia outside of the Eurozone. Since the 1-O over 1500 businesses have left Catalonia. Before the referendum Catalonia had two banks, now it has none. It had seven of the 35 companies of the IBEX 35, now it has one. Many businessmen have stated how bad it would be.

Except for the crazy folks of the CUP, this is about dodging jail and creating a country they have full control of, so they can turn their corruption up to eleven without consecuences. The biggest nationalist-now-independentist catalonian party (Convergencia) and his founder (Jordi Pujol) have been stealing catalonians (3% corruption scandal, Wikipedia link in spanish for those interested) for decades. Apparently it was vox populi among politicians, but they let it slide until now because Convergencia was a valuable ally for both PP and PSOE in the Spanish Parliament. On top of it Pujol has powerful connections and critical information regarding the corruption of many top dogs (video for those who know spanish or catalonian).

Despite this, some members of Convergencia have ended in jail, and It seems that things can get ugly really fast because Andorra's banking secrecy ends in 2018 and some say that many of the 3% money has been there in the past.



It's pointless to argue about this from a legal standpoint since most independence movements are illegal from the perspective of the original jurisdiction ...

Law is only rooted in power so if the people of Catalonia does not recognize the Spanish constitution then it's just empty papers to them. What Spain did by constantly blocking the referendums and threatening to implicate military force is anti-democratic and is just plain bullying ...



vivster said:

No matter from what angle I look at it it seems to be along the same stupid populist lines as Brexit. "We want independence. What do we gain from it? We don't care because we're bored and need something to rally for!".

But yeah, good for them to "stick it to the man".

Meanwhile Palestine sits there and thinks to itself: "WTF?!"

Catalonian independence is a much older thing than the current wave of populism. The pro-independence Catalonians would probably like to be part of the EU as an independent state if it were possible.