Puppyroach said: Locknuts said: Government is a necessary evil. There is always the risk a government could become tyrannical (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Venezuela, original Britain/US situation) therefore it is in the best interests of the people to limit the power and size of their government. The idea of the USA was born from tyranny from Britain and the US forefathers understood that big government is a really bad idea. If you've ever worked in government, you'll know how hoplessly inefficient it is too. They waste money like you wouldn't believe, and like you never would with your own money. But they do it with everyone elses money. Money they get via coercion. You may agree with some of the things the government does with tax money, but even if you find yourself disagreeing with those in charge, they will still send men with guns eventually to take your 'fair share'. If you resist men with guns, you get shot. No, government is the extension of the people, so of course they are not a necessary evil. The cases you name are not cases where the government is elected by the people, but taken over by (in most cases) a military force. Even in Nazi Germany, the party that took the government hostage did so while it only had the support of about a third of the country.   If the people treat the government as their tool, where we set the standards through our elected officials, then government is generally a good thing. There are a lot of cases of where government run entities are inefficient, but the same can be sad if privately run entities aswell. The difference is that you and me can affect the government run entities while we have no say in how private alternatives set up their business model. A great example is health care where the privately run model of the US is highly ineffective and costs people way more than government run alternatives in other countries.

No, the military is part of the government. They can't be taken over by a 'military force' unless that force exists in the first place. In the cases I talked about the military was already in place. Given the power to create a military and a monopoly on military weapons, the potential for corruption is immense. They need to be kept in check at all times so that they don't become tyranical. 

The difference between private sector inefficiency and government inefficiency is that the poorly run private company fails, but the poorly run government entity keeps tapping into tax payer money, often giving the illusion of success. The bigger the government, the more tax payer money they bleed.

Locknuts said: Puppyroach said: No, government is the extension of the people, so of course they are not a necessary evil. The cases you name are not cases where the government is elected by the people, but taken over by (in most cases) a military force. Even in Nazi Germany, the party that took the government hostage did so while it only had the support of about a third of the country. If the people treat the government as their tool, where we set the standards through our elected officials, then government is generally a good thing. There are a lot of cases of where government run entities are inefficient, but the same can be sad if privately run entities aswell. The difference is that you and me can affect the government run entities while we have no say in how private alternatives set up their business model. A great example is health care where the privately run model of the US is highly ineffective and costs people way more than government run alternatives in other countries.  No, the military is part of the government. They can't be taken over by a 'military force' unless that force exists in the first place. In the cases I talked about the military was already in place. Given the power to create a military and a monopoly on military weapons, the potential for corruption is immense. They need to be kept in check at all times so that they don't become tyranical.  The difference between private sector inefficiency and government inefficiency is that the poorly run private company fails, but the poorly run government entity keeps tapping into tax payer money, often giving the illusion of success. The bigger the government, the more tax payer money they bleed.

Ofcourse the military can be taken over by another military force, I thought that would be quite obvious =). And the cases you are talkning about is not cases where the people have elected to have a dictatorial leader, therefore it is a fallacy that it would be some inheerent "evil" with the concept of government. If I drive a car, and delibirately run someone else over, you don´t blame the car, but rather the driver. And ofcourse there is great potential for corruption, which once again does not mean that the concept of government is a necessary evil in itself. It is the people we elect that is the problem in those cases.

Once again we have the example of the US health care system, where insurance companies receive enormous amounts of money from the people, while government led alternatives in other countries is muche less costly. Privately run entities are best and most effective for some markets, while government run entities are best and most effective for other markets. Also, if the government isn´t managing a department or specific matter as good as we citizens like, it is our job to elect officials that can rectify the situation. We don´t have that influence in private companies (an influence we also shouldn´t have).

Flilix said: Did people seriously believe that a selfish millionaire like Trump was going to help the poor?

Watch out he might sue you for such slander!Yes , hat's a real thing. Trump sued a Journalist for calling him a millionare instead of Billionare.

Jumpin said: I thought the entire basis on the opposition was that he was pro-1% representative? The people who voted for him were those that assumed, “one day I’ll be rich, and when I’m rich, I’ll be laughing at the poor.” When the reality is they’re going to get fucked.   Also, trickle down economics will no more be true than it has been in the past. Social-policy is the only way money trickles down from the profitable. Sure you’ll get a few stories of rich business owners who are actually good to their employees - but historically, this is a rarity. In the corporate world, it only occurs if the stakeholders require a good image.

Poor southerners, women and rural Americans mostly voted for trump thinking he would actually give a damn. Some of them voted for him on blindly biased and nationalist ticket when it came to immigrants and minorities.

TurboElder said: Flilix said: Did people seriously believe that a selfish millionaire like Trump was going to help the poor? He already did. "U.S. economy accelerated during first full Trump quarter" http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/28/news/economy/gdp-second-quarter-trump-economy/index.html

THose quarters were not because of trump but because of actual businesses holding the market together. Trump blindly attributed stock market rises to himself and stated that they would somehow affect the national debt. Seriously....I don't know what else to say.

People do like Trump is responsible for everything now, the republican party is pushing for a lot of that as they have a vast majority in the house while Trump isnt intervening. It wasnt much different under obama.

Superman4 said: StarOcean said: Used "Liberal media" unironically. Already not gonna read for that. I'll use "Nazi" and "racist" for as long as you call it "liberal media".  I used to watch CNN on the regular. I stopped after this election made clear that they are the worst offenders for BS "news". They make Fox look like Ghandi. Everything that Trump says they twist into something its not and blow it way out of proportion. Fox was actually way more on point and stuck to what was said for both Hillary and Trump during the lection, I watched both. So the term "Liberal Media" is a just description considring everything that comes from that Network and a number of others is complete spin towards their agenda. The terms Nazi and racist just fit in with that Liberal agenda since they are also complete BS statements.

I have to watch them both every night. CNN is anti-Trump, which doesn't make you liberal. It's common sense to be anti-Trump. I'm not a liberal and I think Trump is a disgrace to the entire world. Fox is pro-Trump. Well they flipped when all the other Rep candidates lost to him, anyway. CNN, no, any news network even need to twist his words because all he does is lie and say stupid shit. He's less functional than the patients I take care of. Fox is a conservative network and was never going to like Hillary. And was never ever going to be fair to her even if she was a decent candidate due to her ties with Obama. They were never on point and would defend Trump even if he raped a child. 

And using the word liberal to equate to spin is the same as conservative equates to lunatics since you have Info Wars saying Michelle Obama is a man and Fox promoting the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. So nah nah nah, you gonna hate one, you gotta hate the other. Both groups have made me lose most of my hope in humanity. At worst, this will blow over in 4-8yrs, at best the US crumbles to the ground. Trump is a bad businessman, politician, son, husband, father, and president. He would have you shot dead if it gave him 5 minutes of fame. He's petty, weak, insecure. You do not want that man to represent you. Whether or not he committed crimes doesn't negate him being a terrible human being.

My main reasons for being anti-Trump are his lack of care for the environment and his agenda on pushing any shitty health plan just to say, "Ha! Suck it!" to people he is against. Which in turn hurts MY clients, people I care for. The other shit is just icing on the cake. You might say, "Well he said otherwise" but his actions speak differently. He has proven he has little regard for life on earth and the people he is supposed to represent. 

StarOcean said: Superman4 said: I used to watch CNN on the regular. I stopped after this election made clear that they are the worst offenders for BS "news". They make Fox look like Ghandi. Everything that Trump says they twist into something its not and blow it way out of proportion. Fox was actually way more on point and stuck to what was said for both Hillary and Trump during the lection, I watched both. So the term "Liberal Media" is a just description considring everything that comes from that Network and a number of others is complete spin towards their agenda. The terms Nazi and racist just fit in with that Liberal agenda since they are also complete BS statements.  I have to watch them both every night. CNN is anti-Trump, which doesn't make you liberal. It's common sense to be anti-Trump. I'm not a liberal and I think Trump is a disgrace to the entire world. Fox is pro-Trump. Well they flipped when all the other Rep candidates lost to him, anyway. CNN, no, any news network even need to twist his words because all he does is lie and say stupid shit. He's less functional than the patients I take care of. Fox is a conservative network and was never going to like Hillary. And was never ever going to be fair to her even if she was a decent candidate due to her ties with Obama. They were never on point and would defend Trump even if he raped a child.  And using the word liberal to equate to spin is the same as conservative equates to lunatics since you have Info Wars saying Michelle Obama is a man and Fox promoting the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. So nah nah nah, you gonna hate one, you gotta hate the other. Both groups have made me lose most of my hope in humanity. At worst, this will blow over in 4-8yrs, at best the US crumbles to the ground. Trump is a bad businessman, politician, son, husband, father, and president. He would have you shot dead if it gave him 5 minutes of fame. He's petty, weak, insecure. You do not want that man to represent you. Whether or not he committed crimes doesn't negate him being a terrible human being. My main reasons for being anti-Trump are his lack of care for the environment and his agenda on pushing any shitty health plan just to say, "Ha! Suck it!" to people he is against. Which in turn hurts MY clients, people I care for. The other shit is just icing on the cake. You might say, "Well he said otherwise" but his actions speak differently. He has proven he has little regard for life on earth and the people he is supposed to represent.

 

The reason I use liberal to describe CNN and such is because up until Trump I considered myself more a Liberal-Democrat than anything else. I voted for Bill Clinton and Obama, Hell I voted for Al Gore. I agree with Some of what Bernie says and still think that if the DNC didn't screw him over that he would have won over Trump. What lost me about that party and really my state ( California ) is that I actually paid attention this time around. I read every last detail of everything on the Ballot, who was for and against each measure and came to the realization that the Democrats and Liberals, in this state at least are generally idiots. They put no thought into the ramifications of what they want to accomplish. Every last measure on the ballot that was funded and supported by Democrats took away voters rights and ability to have a say. When reading them I thought there was no way any Democrat would pass such idiotic measures but alas, every single one passed. Watching CNN plainly lie about what Trump said in his debates...which I watched in their entity, turned me to Fox to see what they had to say. I never really watched Fox before this election. Fox was actually pretty much on point with what Trump said and even Hillary. They bashed some of what he said because they didn't want him to win either and still bash him on occasion. CNN however did nothing of the sort. They would take snippets of the speech, out of context and incomplete and twist them into something they weren't and debate about it for an hour. Then Ana Navarro decided to start calling Trump a racist and saying he called all Mexicans murderers and Rapists. I watched that entire speech from start to finish, Live and thats not what he said. She has continued to say that same false narrative every time she is on the show. If you watch Fox its not that way, they bash Hillary yes, but they also bash Trump and a lot of other republicans on various issues. They will give those same people credit when they deserve it and unlike CNN wont take another backhanded jab right after any praise if any is given at all. CNN even twisted what he said about good people being on both sides during that protest where the women was run over. Not all of the people were violent or racist, it only takes a few to start trouble just ask Antifa. Fox does have some people that are far right in their beliefs but honestly for the most part the shows I watch are far better than the trash CNN is spewing these days. Hell, watching the election results on CNN when Hillary got off to an early lead was comical. They were all giddy and I told ya so up until Trump started to take some states he wasn't supposed to, then they switched the tone to "its still early" and "he will have to sweep these to have a chance". They didnt even want to call it in Trumps favor once it was clear he had won.

kowenicki said: monocle_layton said:   'Buh Obama!'   Ok, now what about Trump? Why is it that any criticism avout Trump will always be directed to Obama or Hillary? Stop beating the bush and answer the actual problem. I thought I was quite clear.  The problem is politicians... all politicians.   But it is a fair point to ask why Obama got such a free ride, given his incompetence and failure to deliver.  He left a legacy of division leading to a Trump win.  Undeniable.

What lead to a Trump win was Hillary.  She was just to weak and had way to much baggage even against someone like Trump.  Also if you think Obama brought division in the US, you probably live on the side that never new it existed for decades.  Nothing you see today is something that just happens.  Just like any condition it has been brewing for years.  

Also, not sure why Obama making money has anything to do with inequality.  Inequality means peoople do not have the means to move from where they at because of systems in place to keep them from succeeding.  Examples would be white males making more money in the same position as a Female.

Also everything you listed is the going price for a President to speak.  How making money and charging the usual price for your services has anything with inequality, I am not seeing how this adds up.

Superman4 said: StarOcean said: I have to watch them both every night. CNN is anti-Trump, which doesn't make you liberal. It's common sense to be anti-Trump. I'm not a liberal and I think Trump is a disgrace to the entire world. Fox is pro-Trump. Well they flipped when all the other Rep candidates lost to him, anyway. CNN, no, any news network even need to twist his words because all he does is lie and say stupid shit. He's less functional than the patients I take care of. Fox is a conservative network and was never going to like Hillary. And was never ever going to be fair to her even if she was a decent candidate due to her ties with Obama. They were never on point and would defend Trump even if he raped a child.  And using the word liberal to equate to spin is the same as conservative equates to lunatics since you have Info Wars saying Michelle Obama is a man and Fox promoting the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. So nah nah nah, you gonna hate one, you gotta hate the other. Both groups have made me lose most of my hope in humanity. At worst, this will blow over in 4-8yrs, at best the US crumbles to the ground. Trump is a bad businessman, politician, son, husband, father, and president. He would have you shot dead if it gave him 5 minutes of fame. He's petty, weak, insecure. You do not want that man to represent you. Whether or not he committed crimes doesn't negate him being a terrible human being. My main reasons for being anti-Trump are his lack of care for the environment and his agenda on pushing any shitty health plan just to say, "Ha! Suck it!" to people he is against. Which in turn hurts MY clients, people I care for. The other shit is just icing on the cake. You might say, "Well he said otherwise" but his actions speak differently. He has proven he has little regard for life on earth and the people he is supposed to represent.    The reason I use liberal to describe CNN and such is because up until Trump I considered myself more a Liberal-Democrat than anything else. I voted for Bill Clinton and Obama, Hell I voted for Al Gore. I agree with Some of what Bernie says and still think that if the DNC didn't screw him over that he would have won over Trump. What lost me about that party and really my state ( California ) is that I actually paid attention this time around. I read every last detail of everything on the Ballot, who was for and against each measure and came to the realization that the Democrats and Liberals, in this state at least are generally idiots. They put no thought into the ramifications of what they want to accomplish. Every last measure on the ballot that was funded and supported by Democrats took away voters rights and ability to have a say. When reading them I thought there was no way any Democrat would pass such idiotic measures but alas, every single one passed. Watching CNN plainly lie about what Trump said in his debates...which I watched in their entity, turned me to Fox to see what they had to say. I never really watched Fox before this election. Fox was actually pretty much on point with what Trump said and even Hillary. They bashed some of what he said because they didn't want him to win either and still bash him on occasion. CNN however did nothing of the sort. They would take snippets of the speech, out of context and incomplete and twist them into something they weren't and debate about it for an hour. Then Ana Navarro decided to start calling Trump a racist and saying he called all Mexicans murderers and Rapists. I watched that entire speech from start to finish, Live and thats not what he said. She has continued to say that same false narrative every time she is on the show. If you watch Fox its not that way, they bash Hillary yes, but they also bash Trump and a lot of other republicans on various issues. They will give those same people credit when they deserve it and unlike CNN wont take another backhanded jab right after any praise if any is given at all. CNN even twisted what he said about good people being on both sides during that protest where the women was run over. Not all of the people were violent or racist, it only takes a few to start trouble just ask Antifa. Fox does have some people that are far right in their beliefs but honestly for the most part the shows I watch are far better than the trash CNN is spewing these days. Hell, watching the election results on CNN when Hillary got off to an early lead was comical. They were all giddy and I told ya so up until Trump started to take some states he wasn't supposed to, then they switched the tone to "its still early" and "he will have to sweep these to have a chance". They didnt even want to call it in Trumps favor once it was clear he had won.

The thing is, do you want a bad Rep like Trump in office? You called yourself a Lib/Dem. If you are theres no way I could see you truly supporting him unless its out of protest. If you want a good Republican, John Kasich is a great one to follow. I don't see Bernie running in 2020. I think a decent Dem to look at for 2020/2024 is Joe Kennedy. But hey, that's my 2 cents. And really, Fox is still bad. Politics-wise. I'll always maintain that Fox and CNN make really good non-political peices though.