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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's tax proposal: raise taxes on the poor, give to the rich

TheWPCTraveler said:

I'm quite annoted at the substance of the original post, or the lack thereof. Let's fix that.

First off is a direct link to the paper: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/publication/144971/a_preliminary_analysis_of_the_unified_framework_0.pdf [1]

All emphases going forward are added by me, to denote a direct quote. Bolding is for emphasis.

Page 3:

In 2018, the average tax bill for all income groups would decline. Taxpayers in the bottom 95 percent of the income distribution would see average after-tax incomes increase between 0.5 and 1.2 percent. Taxpayers in the top 1 percent (incomes above $730,000), would receive about 50 percent of the total tax benefit; their after-tax income would increase an average of 8.5 percent. Between 2018 and 2027, the average tax cut as a share of after-tax income would fall for all income groups other than the top 1 percent. In 2027, taxpayers between the 80th and 95th percentiles of income (between about $150,000 and $300,000) would experience a slight tax increase on average.

In other words, all groups will receive a boost in after-tax income. It's just that the rich would receive most of the benefit (though getting billionaires to relocate to America and (ideally) preventing them from using offshore tax havens would actually be a reasonable revenue-raising plan in my eyes; ditto with corporations and their offshore subsidiaries)

The WaPo article appears to be referring to the referring to Table 3, in particular the columns under "Tax units with tax cut or increase."
In particular, the average tax increase for certain tax units is larger than the average tax cut for other tax units. The issue with using that as a metric is that the percentage of tax units is already given - and the fact is that they still get a tax cut, contrary to what the OP states.

EDIT: The article actually refers to the (upper) middle class - those within the 80th to 95th percentiles.
And, the paper does, indeed state this, a net tax increase.

In 2018, about 12 percent of taxpayers would face a tax increase of roughly $1,800 on average. More than a third of taxpayers making between about $150,000 and $300,000 would pay more, mainly because most itemized deductions would be repealed.

In 2027, the overall average tax cut would be smaller than in 2018, increasing after-tax incomes 1.7 percent (table 3). Taxpayer groups in the bottom 80 percent of the income distribution—those making less than about $150,000—would receive average tax cuts of 0.5 percent or less of after-tax income. Taxpayers making between about $150,000 and $300,000 would on average pay about $800 more in taxes than under current law. About 80 percent of the total benefit would accrue to taxpayers in the top 1 percent, whose after-tax income would increase 8.7 percent. An alternative presentation of the distributional effects of the framework is available in appendix B.

"In 2018, the average tax bill for all income groups would decline."

So he is not cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the poor, but instead he is cutting them for both but more for the rich? did i got that right?.



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Hiku said:
estebxx said:

"In 2018, the average tax bill for all income groups would decline."

So he is not cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the poor, but instead he is cutting them for both but more for the rich? did i got that right?.

More for the rich is an understatement. About 80% of Trump's tax benefit go to the top 2% most wealthy in the country.
1% for an average minimum wage person is like $14 dollars.
1% for Bill Gates is a whole lot more than that. Many trillions of dollars are taken out of the tax economy, and majorly funneled towards the most wealthy. And the poorest in the country are footing the bill for this, with for example cuts to Medicare by $473 billion, and Medicaid by $1 trillion.

Republican's call this system "trickle-down economics".

It's the (absurd) idea that if you pile up most of the nations wealth on the most wealthy, it will eventually "trickle down" on the middle and lower class.
Problem is this has never worked in the US.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcsJGOTnQ1E

This is why the rich mostly fund the republican party, because they want these big tax breaks.
To get the people on board, they tell them that they will cut taxes for them as well. Yeah, 1 dollar extra a month for you Timmy, and 500k extra a month for you, Mr Rockefeller. Just don't tell Timmy that he is paying for this in other ways.

So he IS cutting taxes for both.



Hiku said:
estebxx said:

"In 2018, the average tax bill for all income groups would decline."

So he is not cutting taxes on the rich and raising them on the poor, but instead he is cutting them for both but more for the rich? did i got that right?.

More for the rich is an understatement. About 80% of Trump's tax benefit go to the top 2% most wealthy in the country.
1% for an average minimum wage person is like $14 dollars.
1% for Bill Gates is a whole lot more than that. Many trillions of dollars are taken out of the tax economy, and majorly funneled towards the most wealthy. And the poorest in the country are footing the bill for this, with for example cuts to Medicare by $473 billion, and Medicaid by $1 trillion.

Republican's call this system "trickle-down economics".

It's the (absurd) idea that if you pile up most of the nations wealth on the most wealthy, it will eventually "trickle down" on the middle and lower class.
Problem is this has never worked in the US.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcsJGOTnQ1E

This is why the rich mostly fund the republican party, because they want these big tax breaks.
To get the people on board, they tell them that they will cut taxes for them as well. Yeah, 1 dollar extra a month for you Timmy, and 500k extra a month for you, Mr Rockefeller. Just don't tell Timmy that he is paying for this in other ways.

Actually, by taxing the top 1% at a much higher rate than everyone else you are propping up your econemy based on their income. Income that they then move out of the country and have the means to avoid paying on which in turn means the goverment has less money. If you eliminate the loopholes for those 1% and lower the tax rate they will end up paying more in taxes ( while still taking home the same amount possibly a little more) which allows you to lower taxes accross the board and "prop up" your economy on the middle class who now have more money to spend. The Democrats like to take one buzzword and twist it into what they want you to believe. You can raise taxes on business and 1%  class to 4000% if you like, all that will happen is those companies will all move out of the country and they will find every tax loophole they can to not pay it. You will then need to raise taxes on the middle class who cant get out of paying it......the Democratic way.



Puppyroach said:
Locknuts said:
Cut taxes for everyone. Shrink the government.

Why is a shrinking government good? 

Government is a necessary evil. There is always the risk a government could become tyrannical (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Venezuela, original Britain/US situation) therefore it is in the best interests of the people to limit the power and size of their government.

The idea of the USA was born from tyranny from Britain and the US forefathers understood that big government is a really bad idea.

If you've ever worked in government, you'll know how hoplessly inefficient it is too. They waste money like you wouldn't believe, and like you never would with your own money. But they do it with everyone elses money. Money they get via coercion. You may agree with some of the things the government does with tax money, but even if you find yourself disagreeing with those in charge, they will still send men with guns eventually to take your 'fair share'. If you resist men with guns, you get shot.



I thought the entire basis on the opposition was that he was pro-1% representative?
The people who voted for him were those that assumed, “one day I’ll be rich, and when I’m rich, I’ll be laughing at the poor.”

When the reality is they’re going to get fucked.

 

Also, trickle down economics will no more be true than it has been in the past. Social-policy is the only way money trickles down from the profitable. Sure you’ll get a few stories of rich business owners who are actually good to their employees - but historically, this is a rarity. In the corporate world, it only occurs if the stakeholders require a good image.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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OMG! The people who pay 80% of the total taxes collected[the top 10%] get 80% of the tax cut benefit. And the people who pay nothing [the bottom 10%]or actually get money for nothing, get barely a nickel. This tax plan has everyone making less than $10/hr FT paying ZERO tax. Right now they pay 12% unless they have illegitimate kids. Then those baby mommas actually take money from the rest of us taxpayers.



KManX89 said:
kowenicki said:

Alreaqdy debunked. 

O'RLY?

Straight from the Tax Policy Center: 

"By 2027, taxes would rise for roughly one-quarter of taxpayers, including nearly 30 percent of those with incomes between about $50,000 and $150,000 and 60 percent of those making between about $150,000 and $300,000," the study said. "The number of taxpayers with a tax increase rises over time."

Trump is not for the "little guy".

Wow this sucks, I make less than $300,000 a year so by your OP I am poor ... shit not just poor but destitute ... that is just plain sobering.... Here I thought I was doing ok: making just under 50K a year, having a house and 16 acres (in a great school district) that is nearly paid off, being able to buy games I don't even get around to playing, never going hungry.  I thought I was doing well , too bad I was wrong.



Zoombael said:
If you think hard and long about it, it actually makes sense.

Poor/muddle class people may tend to hoard their money, and saved money isn't spend money, less tax for the state. Rich people on the other hand spend more money the more money they have, which in turn is good for state and economy, and good for the little man. See. All is good and well.

I can't tell from your post—are you being sarcastic?  This is literally the opposite of reality as I understand it.  Poor people generally can't afford to save much of their income because of their expenses, and usually turn around and spend the money very quickly, either by buying things they've needed/wanted for a while but couldn't afford yet or paying off debt (increasing their purchasing power).  The people who can hoard their wealth are the ones whose basic expenses (food etc.) make up a smaller proportion of their total income.  The rich. 



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Washington post? I'll believe this pile of shit when it isn't owned by some other billion who certainly has other interests in mind. Hey, wasn't this the website that bashed Bernie Sanders as well?



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Locknuts said:
Puppyroach said:

Why is a shrinking government good? 

Government is a necessary evil. There is always the risk a government could become tyrannical (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Venezuela, original Britain/US situation) therefore it is in the best interests of the people to limit the power and size of their government.

The idea of the USA was born from tyranny from Britain and the US forefathers understood that big government is a really bad idea.

If you've ever worked in government, you'll know how hoplessly inefficient it is too. They waste money like you wouldn't believe, and like you never would with your own money. But they do it with everyone elses money. Money they get via coercion. You may agree with some of the things the government does with tax money, but even if you find yourself disagreeing with those in charge, they will still send men with guns eventually to take your 'fair share'. If you resist men with guns, you get shot.

No, government is the extension of the people, so of course they are not a necessary evil. The cases you name are not cases where the government is elected by the people, but taken over by (in most cases) a military force. Even in Nazi Germany, the party that took the government hostage did so while it only had the support of about a third of the country.

 

If the people treat the government as their tool, where we set the standards through our elected officials, then government is generally a good thing. There are a lot of cases of where government run entities are inefficient, but the same can be sad if privately run entities aswell. The difference is that you and me can affect the government run entities while we have no say in how private alternatives set up their business model. A great example is health care where the privately run model of the US is highly ineffective and costs people way more than government run alternatives in other countries.