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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's tax proposal: raise taxes on the poor, give to the rich

SpokenTruth said:
Superman4 said:

The higher wages will not be for the same number of employees. You will have more overtime for existing workers and possibly higher salaries for retention. Base wages for new employees may go up slightly but will include benefits. Turn time on projects will increase but whats better, a fast turn time and layoffs or a constant stream of work?

1. If you lose X low wage employees and must replace them with X normal wage employees, your costs just went up.

2. Overtime and higher salaries mean costs just went up.

3. Base wage increase and new benefits mean costs just went up.

4. Employers are not going to eat these costs.  They will get passed down the line.  If they were ok paying that amount and not raising prices, they would have been hiring legal citizens from the start.  You cannot increase operational costs without harming either your profits or market prices.

4. How will this increase turn time on projects?  How will this increase agriculture speed?  Construction speed? etc...?

You missed the point. You will end up with less employees overall, just with higher wages and benefits. That is why it will take longer for projects. During times of disasster like Katrina and others building costs go up with demand for materials, not because of a lack of labor. Companies will and are starting to staff for year round work instead of overstaff for a project and layoff once the project is done. 



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SpokenTruth said:
Superman4 said:

You missed the point. You will end up with less employees overall, just with higher wages and benefits. That is why it will take longer for projects. During times of disasster like Katrina and others building costs go up with demand for materials, not because of a lack of labor. Companies will and are starting to staff for year round work instead of overstaff for a project and layoff once the project is done. 

1. Back up that last statement with reports.

2. That's just one component of the economy.  I posted that chart of illegal immigrant percentage of several job sectors a page or so back.  You might want to take a look at it.

All of which fall under construction aside from AG.  Companies cut back on labor all the time and do the same amount of work with less people. That is exactly what will happen at first. How long it stays that way depends on a number of factors. I dont care how much free money the goverment gets from illegals in sales tax etc. Send them back where they came from and start focusing on legal citizens. If the border wall is made up entirely of tax paying citizens Im fine with it. If that means I have to wait an extra year for a new home then so be it. 



That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.



Superman4 said:

So here is how it affects me. AFter putting money into my HSA and 401K I will net right at about 60K. With my wifes business depending on deductions it will probably clear 20K or so. At the moment I dont itemize and take the standard deduction plus the child deduction. So that equates to 12K plus the personel exemption of 4K and 3K for my kids. So 19K in deductions. Under the new plan I get 24K off the top plus 1.6K per kid and 300 for my wife. So 29.1K in deductions. Even if I owned my home which I will this year, it will be under 500K, I do have student loans that I will start to pay but the interest on those wont be 12K a year. Add to this that my tax rate will go from 10%, 15% and 25%down to 12% and I will save even more. I am Middle class truely. Anyone who says they are middle class and lives in the city with a 4K a month rent payment or a 1 million dollar home is delusional. 

Is this an argument? Different people would be in different situations. You say yourself that you don't really use many deductions

I did the math real quick to see what the difference is for someone married filing jointly with a total income of $80,000 with three kids and no other deductions and found that they would see a decrease in taxes of $1,205. That leaves a change in total after-tax income of 1.6% which is pretty close to what the graph I included said was average (maybe a bit above average since you don't have many deductions). If you use other deductions, that percentage starts to shrink. Say you have some student loans (as you say you do). Depending on how much they are, that could tack $375 off of your taxes paid, dropping that difference to 1.1%. 

Basically, as I previously said, depending on how much you utilized the factors that were cut, you may end up losing out. That doesn't apply to everybody, but it does apply to some. Others will end up getting a small increase in after tax income unless you are in the top 5% where you will be getting a pretty huge increase in after tax income. You are pulling in about 1.5%, or $1200 while those making $200,000 will pull in about 8%, or $16,000. 

That means you and families like yours are paying proportionally more to the government while more likely to be overcome by the negative side effects of inflating budgets due to the tiny gain you are receiving. 

While I do actually support some of the changes being made, the overall picture of who gets the benefit is far too warped to make this palatable. 

Last edited by sundin13 - on 03 November 2017

Superman4 said:

That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.

Just to be 100% clear here:  this is you conceding the argument.  It's one thing to say "I cannot think of any evidence or any counterargument to dispute your rebuttal but nevertheless you have not convinced me that my position is actually wrong", but when you almost completely ignore what was said and how it pertains to what you had claimed, and instead just pivot to "haha I hope immigration goes after those occupations", you are abandoning all pretense of having a serious conversation.  You should not be surprised if, in turn, you are not taken seriously. 



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Well looks like this thread was a little premature. Trump's tax plan cuts taxes for almost everyone except Californians earning between $400k & $500k due to the 10% (now non-deductible) state income tax.

Good explanation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUxbApoE8_U

Ben is a little pissed that he is going to lose money but it's a good analysis.



SpokenTruth said:
Superman4 said:

That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.

That's what you got? 

1. So the illegal immigrant employment percentages are somehow dramatically lower today than 8 years ago?

2. And you're right.  They could start looking there. Maybe then ICE will stop stalking 10 year girls with cerebral palsey as they come out of surgey in the hospital and deporting them.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/26/560149316/10-year-old-girl-is-detained-by-ice-officers-after-emergency-surgery



That was my Agree to disagree. You clearly don’t get it so there is no point. I don’t care if they are in every single industry at very high levels and it will cause a mass shortage of employees initially by removing them. They shouldn’t have any of those jobs, are here illegally and need to be removed.  Any argument defending them is asinine since they are illegal and have no right to work. 

 

As for the girl, was she legal? Who is paying for this surgery? If she is illegal I dont care what her issue is or how old she is. 



Man the more info about the bill revealed the worse it sounds. Who would have thought?  Let us bury ourselves in debt for the corporate overlords. 

Republicans probably should have just done an infrastructure bill.  That would have created jobs and repaired our failing infrstructure.  I bet some Democrats would have gone along with an infrastructure bill too unless you have no bid contracts going to Trump cronies. 

Let the fun begin.  I bet house passes some kind of turd and then shit hits the wall in the senate.

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 07 November 2017

I honestly want to know. Do republicans think everyone is completely fucking stupid? I know most their voter base is fucking retarded but how the fuck do you sit there and try to sell a upper class / business tax cut and state that lowering taxes on business will see an average salary grow 4-9k per year in fucking how many years they want to pull out their ass. Tell me how that fucking works. You think these businesses are going to be like oh gee look at that extra money you know what I was really thinking about giving it to the employees and not share buyback.  I forgot this is the crowd that thinks jesus is coming any day to save their ass from their own demise.  Enjoy your trickle down.

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 09 November 2017

sundin13 said:
Superman4 said:

Please explain how raising the level of zero tax to 24K, doubling the standard deduction for both single and married while lowering the majority of americans tax bracket from 15% to 12% is raising taxes? Also increasing the child tax credit from 1K to 1600 and adding a $300 per person credit per adult dependant is raising taxes? This will lower taxes for all true middle class people, not the BS ones that have a million dollar home and say they are middle class.

Gladly:

1) Through deductions, most of the people making within the raised zero tax level were already paying nothing. This makes things easier but not really much cheaper.

Do you not know how taxes work? They are tiered. Meaning that for EVERYONE the first 24k is tax free. That is the same for billionaires. Their first 24k is tax free. Then the next say 24k-100k pay at 15%. That means that 66k is taxed at 15%. Your first 24k is still tax free. Then 100k-250k that is taxed at say 20%. Meaning 150k is taxed at 20%, 66k taxed at 15% and 24k not taxed. Then any money over 250k is taxed at say 30%.

I've heard people before say, if I make any more money I will jump up a tax bracket and then make less money overall. That is not true. That is not how taxes work. A friend used to tell me this when I was young about how his dad got a raise and made less money due to that. It's not true.

2) While the standard deduction is increased, many itemized deductions have been eliminated which again leaves most people close to breaking even, or possibly paying more if they were in a situation which benefited from deductions (ie States with high income taxes, families with numerous children, people with high student loan interest, people with high medical bills, etc).

Have you ever worked at a tax firm? Done taxes for a tax season for people before? I have. I've done thousands of taxes. Little heads up. 90% of middle class or lower people are not itemizing their deductions. The standard deduction is usually the higher of the two. And that was when it was at 6k. Double that and it don't matter if none of the itemized deductions are being dropped or not, the new 12k will be higher than most all standard deductions.

Most of the Itemized clients where those that were in the 200k or more. You know people who were able to donate say 10k to their church or other big itemizations.

3) Similar to above, while the child tax credit is increased from 1k to 1.6k, they are cutting the dependent exemption of $4k. That means for middle and upper income families with multiple children, the extra $600 of credits may not cover the loss of $4000 of exemptions.

And for an analysis of where the savings go if you want to look past how things sound in theory and into how they work in practice, look to the Tax Policy Center's analysis of the Unified Framework plan:

As you can see, middle and low income individuals get around a 0.2% to 1% boost in after tax income on average (as previously stated, depending on specific situations certain individuals will be paying more) while those in the top 5% of income get about an 8-10% boost in after tax income. Virtually all of the direct benefit of this plan falls onto corporations and the very wealthy. 

Now, you might be thinking "well a cup of coffee is better than nothing", but you also have to consider the effects of decreased government revenue on different populations. Primarily the negative impacts of increased federal debt which is felt by everybody and in the long term could easily overtake any miniscule benefit these tax breaks have on the poor and middle class. Then there is how government outlays have to adapt to lowered revenue. As we have seen with the Republican budget, this typically involves cutting programs which disproportionately help the poor such as Medicare/Medicaid and the SNAP program, which will often leave lower income individuals having to pay more out of pocket, reducing their real spending power.

My two cents on a couple of your points.

No comment on #3 since been a couple years since did taxes so don't recall on where the exemptions kick in. If before AGI, after, and so on. So I'd rather not make a comment on something I'm not concrete on.