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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why is there no thread about Spain reverting to fascism?

Ka-pi96 said:
Barozi said:

Well it's against the Spanish constitution. What did you expect?

You can't seriously be in favour of this kind of seperation. We're more wealthy than the rest, so let's seperate because we're an egoisitc little group that doesn't want to help the rest of the country? Every region has its own culture. That isn't a reason for seperation though. It's not like they are being oppressed in any way.
By that logic, every city could declare independence and become a country like Monaco or Singapore.

I think there's a general expectation in civilised countries not to be brutally attacked by police when you're no threat to them or to anyone else...

From the dictionary:

Police. Also called police force. an organized civil force for maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime, and enforcing the laws.

That's exactly what they were doing. The referendum was illegal, thus they had to try to prevent people from voting. Were some of them too brutal here and there? Sure, but don't act like every voter is a saint. On such a huge scale like this with millions of people involved, not much happened or at least nothing out of the ordinary.
Compared to the G20 summit in Hamburg earlier this year, this was nothing.


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Volterra_90 said:

Tbh, though I support the referendum, this must be done in a normal way. Those were far from the ideal conditions to vote, so the numbers mustn't be taken seriously. It's a fact that there're a huge percentage of the catalonian people who is independent, but I doubt the validity of the results. 

I don't support the independence, but I too agree that a referendum should be done in a normal way. I wouldn't oppose the results that way, regardless of what the people choose.



Wright said:
Volterra_90 said:

Tbh, though I support the referendum, this must be done in a normal way. Those were far from the ideal conditions to vote, so the numbers mustn't be taken seriously. It's a fact that there're a huge percentage of the catalonian people who is independent, but I doubt the validity of the results. 

I don't support the independence, but I too agree that a referendum should be done in a normal way. I wouldn't oppose the results that way, regardless of what the people choose.

Agree, I strongly disagree with catalan independentism but I wouldn't be against a legal referendum at all as long as there is campaign for the YES but also for the NO, because this time there was only campaign for one side without showing the real pros and cons of the independence.



Wright said:
Volterra_90 said:

Tbh, though I support the referendum, this must be done in a normal way. Those were far from the ideal conditions to vote, so the numbers mustn't be taken seriously. It's a fact that there're a huge percentage of the catalonian people who is independent, but I doubt the validity of the results. 

I don't support the independence, but I too agree that a referendum should be done in a normal way. I wouldn't oppose the results that way, regardless of what the people choose.

Before the referendum I want politicians (and a representant of Europe too if possible) to reach an agreement and then come out and explain the consequences of "yes" and "no". I don't want another Brexit campaign.



JEMC said:

No. Of the 7 million or so people living here, only 5 could vote, and of those only 2 million did.

By the way, if my memory serves me right, in the other non-official referendum that happened almost three years ago also voted about 2 million people. And for reference, in the latest catalan elections, the split in votes between independent parties and non independent ones was something about 49-50, with the rest being null.

Yeah, I mentioned that the previous referendum had slightly bigger number of voters, but I also mentioned that maybe police interference also took away some of the total amount of results.

Though if we bear in mind what you say in the later part of your post, and considering PP's terrible situation-handling, I guess the numbers could get even or surpass the other side of the scales.



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Spain has been on a prolonged slide into facist tendecies. From making abortion practically illegal* over giving the Police force almost universal power against the average citizen to making it almost impossible to report on corruption in the government, the signs have been there for a while.

I have family living in spain and my boyfriend is spanish so for me none of this is that surprising. The spanish euducation system is pretty disastreous, especially on the islands and in rural areas.

I once watched 'Die Welle' (the wave) with him, wich is a film based on a book that explores how facism exploits group dynamics, by establishing an 'Us Vs. Them' mentality and plays into personal insecurities by giving people 'a place to belong' as long as they confirm. In the book, a teacher conducts an experiment with his class to show them these things and prove to them that very few of them would actually have stood up to the cruelty of the Nazis, so he recreates the pressures and bravado of facism within the classroom until the experiment gets out of hand and ends in bloodshed.

One of the first scenes shows the class rearranging their tables, that had been set up in little groups (a very typical german classroom layout, were students sit in little groups of six scattered about the classroom) into a more traditional front facing row layout. For someone with my cultural backround it's pretty clear symbolism for the totalian hierarchical struckture of facism.
My boyfriend just started laughing. When I aksed him why, he said: 'I've never sat any diffrent in school.'

As a german (specifically someone from west germany, east germany has it's own unique problems, compared to western germany, becasue of theri radically diffrent history) we covered the first as well as second world war and the seperation of germany, with all their causes and effects, in and out, several times.
The german education system is also very focused on breeding an environment of discussion, questioning and autonomus thinking, so for me it was pretty shocking to hear that my boyfriend hadn't even covered Franco in school. Instead they extensively covered the great achievements of columbus and spanish colonialism, with complete disregard for the spanish genocide of native americans. Safe to say they also never covered the atrocities of the spanish civil war.

They'd also never written a single essay. He had to completely relearn how to write essays for university.
Spain has a major problem with looking critically at their own history and their education system tends to breed ignogance and blind patriotism as opposed to critical thought.

The whole catalonia sytuation is a hot mess since the whole vote is illegal to begin with according to spanish constitution and would not have been legally binding, also the central government did everything in their power to get iin the way of the vote (even before sending the police in) so the vote would not even have been representative, because the catalonian administration did not have the recources to ensure and anonymous vote, or even that people wouldn't double vote.
The central governments retaliation aginst the local catalonian government has been completely out of proportion, possiby in an attempt to prevent a civil war based on an illegal referendum result.

What's happening in spain is scary, but it's not unexpected.

edit: trying to make abortion pratically illegal. I have to keep up better. Thanks Wright fo calling me out on it!



Player2 said:
Wright said:

I don't support the independence, but I too agree that a referendum should be done in a normal way. I wouldn't oppose the results that way, regardless of what the people choose.

Before the referendum I want politicians (and a representant of Europe too if possible) to reach an agreement and then come out and explain the consequences of "yes" and "no". I don't want another Brexit campaign.

This would be desirable as well, yeah. Achievable? Probably not. xD



Ka-pi96 said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Going by their nonsense logic Barcelona should be independent from Catalonia since they are stealing its money because Barcelona gives more to them than it gets and since referendums should all be legal (or so they say) they should respect them if they want to go out form their own region. Next Cartagena should ask for independence again, and then Bavaria, and then California, and then Padania, and then Flandes, etc etc until every rich region is separated from heir countries, cause that's what democracy means apparently, more and more separation for egotistical reasons.

That people want something just because it's possible? Nah, that's not true at all.

Beating the shit out of people because they don't want to do what you say and share their wealth and would instead prefer to do their own thing independently sounds awfully familiar though... USSR is that you? :O

Like every country in existence does? Income tax? Social Security?

Again, sharing or not sharing wealth is an extremely poor reason and has no boundaries. There will always be people more wealthy that need to share some of their wealth with poorer people - even in Catalonia.



Ka-pi96 said:
palou said:

A fundemental part of democracy is that we do not circumvent the democraticly elected instituitions that we are part of. If the institutions decide that you aren't allowed to make fireworks during the dry months, you respect that, even if you dislike it - and voice your opinion in the next elections. If they tell you that there is to be no independance referendum, you respect that, and voice your opinion in the next legitimate elections. Vote for a candidate that supports the referendum to be held. 

So you're saying a fundamental part of democracy is that it's ok to oppress minorities?

The Catalan people are a minority in Spain. Any candidate that backs their independence is likely to lose support of everyone else and that minority wouldn't be enough to get them elected so their only option is to do it through the local Catalan government, which as far as I know is exactly who started the referendum in the first place.

If a proposition is in opposition to the will of the majority (the people), it does not pass. Yep, that's how democracy works. In the case that there would be only a single issue at discussion, that would create some bad situations, were the importance of each issue isn't evaluated. However, in practice, there are numerous issues all important to the populace that can be discussed. Compromises can be made. If not complete independance, Catalan-elected members of parliament could probably negotiate more self-determination.

 

There is no system of governance that allows everyone to get everything they want. Accepting that, and working with the system to obtain a compromise closer to what you want while respecting the objectives if others, IS democracy.

 

The spanish constituition allowed the federal court to block the referendum, on basis of an undivisible union. And you know what? The proposed catalonian constituition has the same clause. So they clearly do not disagree that such a clause can be a part of a democratic nation. 



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Wright said:
Player2 said:

Before the referendum I want politicians (and a representant of Europe too if possible) to reach an agreement and then come out and explain the consequences of "yes" and "no". I don't want another Brexit campaign.

This would be desirable as well, yeah. Achievable? Probably not. xD

It's needed because we have to deal with people indoctrinated since school (the catalonian government has control over education over there, that's why no public school in Catalonia teaches in spanish), and lies from both sides (we've been listening them for... over five years?