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German election tomorrow

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Who do your want to win?

CDU/CSU 31 10.69%
 
SPD 23 7.93%
 
Left 30 10.34%
 
Greens 12 4.14%
 
FDP 17 5.86%
 
AfD 59 20.34%
 
another one of the parties on ballot 6 2.07%
 
a party not on ballot 6 2.07%
 
no one 17 5.86%
 
see results 89 30.69%
 
Total:290

Good to have you Germans condescending to Americans politics and lecturing us about which party is evil and which is nice. Newsflash, there's only one party in the USA, corporatists and lobbyists run the show. Moreover, I'd take those so-called neo-nazis over Islam apologists/importers any day of the week.

Americans are lucky their immigration problems are mainly related benign Mexicans crossing their imaginary border, we'll see how "progressive" Europe become when Islamists stop being a "minority", which is happening sooner than anyone has predicted.



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Rather than obsessing about banning parties because you think are bad?

Why not force supposedly good Parties to have engaging agendas to actually get more votes?

Imo hoping people dont like the right wingers to get votes, is a rather silly tactic..ask Hillary Clinton if that worked.



ArnoldRimmer said:
vivster said:

Politics in the US is a complete joke and an insult to democracy itself. It degenerated to nothing more than entertainment with rabid fans on both sides that don't play around with a football but with actual human lives. It's not about policy, it's only about winning, or at least the other side losing.

But show me a single country above statement does not apply to.

The only country in this world that I am aware which I'd seriously call a "democracy" is Switzerland. But even they have the party rivalries that are so typical for representative party (=fake) democracies.

I can only speak for my own country. And here politics do not have the same attention as other entertainment and as such have not been degraded into the same circus like in the US. Politics here is boring, mostly because it's actually politics and also because we rarely elect clowns that make outrageous statements on a daily basis. Parties act upon their conscience and policy and not because they desperately need to win the next election. There are no hardened rivalries because the goal is driven by policies and not elections. Attack ads are unthinkable and banned anyway. For the past 8 years the two biggest parties in Germany have governed as one.

Politics in Germany is boring. It's boring because it functions exactly as what it's supposed to. Politics. And actual politics are boring, as they should be. Because when they're boring it means they're not doing stupid outrageous shit.

So please don't even try to remotely compare our democracy with the corporation owned circus that happens in the US. Sure, no democracy is perfect but what we have here is pretty much as close as it gets.

StarOcean said:
vivster said:

I don't think so. As independant as Bernie is, he's still very much associated with the Democrats. I don't think his independant status has anything to do with him being tossed to the sidelines. He just wasn't what the democrat establishment wanted. He was only catering to the left side of the democrats so he couldn't have won either way.

To give 3rd parties any chance whatsoever you would need a complete voting reform and that wouldn't even happen with Bernie as president.

What would allow a 3rd party then? I mean, I suppose even a President couldnt do it cause Congress would block it. So itd have to be Congress. If enough people rallied would there be a chance for one? Even thats low. Nothing short of a revolution could get us one, huh?

Yes. Nothing short of a revolution will help the US fix what's wrong with society and politics. It's not enough to change policy. You need to change the way people think about policy.

I read a recent article about Bernie's proposed single payer healthcare, i.e. the only correct way to do healthcare. It stated that it was most likely not possible to implement it right away because people and politicians need to be slowly convinced about it. So you would have to take one or more steps in between to arrive there. But that is already deemed to fail because a partial implementation of it would be quite sub optimal and leave people with a bad taste in their mouth, which would lead to not even attempting the actual plan. But proper healthcare cannot work if you don't go full hog right away. So it's pretty much doomed. Health care cannot be changed if you don't change how people think about it. Socialism is one thing that makes it so comfortable to live in European countries. In the US it has a completely negative connotation. That will have to change before you can even attempt policy.

Another example would be gun control. In the current climate it is simply impossible to enact a full gun ban for civil use(except sports). So you would have to introduce it gradually. But if you do it gradually you will not see any results, which will just give more fuel to gun activists. It's not just the ban on guns that makes other countries so safe. It's the way people think of guns. It's not a status symbol or a precious symbol of freedom. It's not presented as the only thing to protect yourself and your family. It's simply treated at what it is, a tool for killing, a last resort. In the US it's the former and unless you change how people think about guns you cannot even attempt to apply policy.

Of course things like these can happen gradually over time but in the US you have very active counter forces that will suppress even gradual change. So no, there isn't really much hope. Something big has to happen for people to change.

Germany has been a nation of war once and then became one of the most peaceful nations on earth, but only due to the trauma of war.



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LurkerJ said:
Good to have you Germans condescending to Americans politics and lecturing us about which party is evil and which is nice. Newsflash, there's only one party in the USA, corporatists and lobbyists run the show. Moreover, I'd take those so-called neo-nazis over Islam apologists/importers any day of the week.

Americans are lucky their immigration problems are mainly related benign Mexicans crossing their imaginary border, we'll see how "progressive" Europe become when Islamists stop being a "minority", which is happening sooner than anyone has predicted.

Really? With only ~4% of the EU population being moslems, that would take centuries to change.
Soon....lol



Errorist76 said:
StarOcean said:

He's fine with it, which is the issue with Trump

Same with the AfD. A lot of former right wing CDU guys in there who weren't satisfied that Merkel's CDU moved more to the centre. Same with the voters... apparently they still are ok with sharing ranks with far right people, just like Trump.

 

Btw What is wrong with the poll?! People here wanting the AfD to win?! F'in trolls!

We have a lot of anti-SJW people here. Which to them, means to be the extreme opposite of SJW. Thats why theres so many AfD.



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LurkerJ said:
Good to have you Germans condescending to Americans politics and lecturing us about which party is evil and which is nice. Newsflash, there's only one party in the USA, corporatists and lobbyists run the show. Moreover, I'd take those so-called neo-nazis over Islam apologists/importers any day of the week.

Americans are lucky their immigration problems are mainly related benign Mexicans crossing their imaginary border, we'll see how "progressive" Europe become when Islamists stop being a "minority", which is happening sooner than anyone has predicted.

Bosnia is majority Muslim, and the people there seem to be just fine to me.



How anyone could vote for AFD can't be right in his head. The AFD party is a huge joke. They don't know what they want to do and where the want to go. A party without a plan. All they do is react to the things which are in front of them and not seeing what is coming from the distance.

Not that certain Neo Nazi's are part of the party and some being even thrown out because of it, the party itself is in constant dispute.
Now even Frauke Petry left the fraction.

Those people are not ready to run a government. They are clowns.



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vivster said:
ArnoldRimmer said:

But show me a single country above statement does not apply to.

The only country in this world that I am aware which I'd seriously call a "democracy" is Switzerland. But even they have the party rivalries that are so typical for representative party (=fake) democracies.

I can only speak for my own country. And here politics do not have the same attention as other entertainment and as such have not been degraded into the same circus like in the US. Politics here is boring, mostly because it's actually politics and also because we rarely elect clowns that make outrageous statements on a daily basis. Parties act upon their conscience and policy and not because they desperately need to win the next election. There are no hardened rivalries because the goal is driven by policies and not elections. Attack ads are unthinkable and banned anyway. For the past 8 years the two biggest parties in Germany have governed as one.

Politics in Germany is boring. It's boring because it functions exactly as what it's supposed to. Politics. And actual politics are boring, as they should be. Because when they're boring it means they're not doing stupid outrageous shit.

So please don't even try to remotely compare our democracy with the corporation owned circus that happens in the US. Sure, no democracy is perfect but what we have here is pretty much as close as it gets.

StarOcean said:

What would allow a 3rd party then? I mean, I suppose even a President couldnt do it cause Congress would block it. So itd have to be Congress. If enough people rallied would there be a chance for one? Even thats low. Nothing short of a revolution could get us one, huh?

Yes. Nothing short of a revolution will help the US fix what's wrong with society and politics. It's not enough to change policy. You need to change the way people think about policy.

I read a recent article about Bernie's proposed single payer healthcare, i.e. the only correct way to do healthcare. It stated that it was most likely not possible to implement it right away because people and politicians need to be slowly convinced about it. So you would have to take one or more steps in between to arrive there. But that is already deemed to fail because a partial implementation of it would be quite sub optimal and leave people with a bad taste in their mouth, which would lead to not even attempting the actual plan. But proper healthcare cannot work if you don't go full hog right away. So it's pretty much doomed. Health care cannot be changed if you don't change how people think about it. Socialism is one thing that makes it so comfortable to live in European countries. In the US it has a completely negative connotation. That will have to change before you can even attempt policy.

Another example would be gun control. In the current climate it is simply impossible to enact a full gun ban for civil use(except sports). So you would have to introduce it gradually. But if you do it gradually you will not see any results, which will just give more fuel to gun activists. It's not just the ban on guns that makes other countries so safe. It's the way people think of guns. It's not a status symbol or a precious symbol of freedom. It's not presented as the only thing to protect yourself and your family. It's simply treated at what it is, a tool for killing, a last resort. In the US it's the former and unless you change how people think about guns you cannot even attempt to apply policy.

Of course things like these can happen gradually over time but in the US you have very active counter forces that will suppress even gradual change. So no, there isn't really much hope. Something big has to happen for people to change.

Germany has been a nation of war once and then became one of the most peaceful nations on earth, but only due to the trauma of war.

Part of why I think the US should fall or at least have a war at home. But I definitely would not want to be here when that happens XD



StarOcean said:

Part of why I think the US should fall or at least have a war at home. But I definitely would not want to be here when that happens XD

I think a domestic war would just exacerbate the problem. Put the US even more in its favorite victim role and "prove" all those right wing fear mongers right.

What would be a lot more effective would be a complete economic collapse.

It would make them even more dependant of foreign aid, weakening the national ego.
Gun violence may increase which may prompt stricter enforcement of gun control.
It would make them spend less on defense.
It would make many more people dependant on welfare, expanding social programs.
Lower overall income would make the government crack down on shady financial institutions and the out of control pharma industry.
Government would maybe have some motivation for tax reform and cracking down on tax evaders.

That's all hypothetical of course but it sounds nice. The US has mostly made policy from a position of strength and rarely out of weakness, which explains why there are so few policies that help the weak or create safenets in case of sudden weakness.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
StarOcean said:

Part of why I think the US should fall or at least have a war at home. But I definitely would not want to be here when that happens XD

I think a domestic war would just exacerbate the problem. Put the US even more in its favorite victim role and "prove" all those right wing fear mongers right.

What would be a lot more effective would be a complete economic collapse.

It would make them even more dependant of foreign aid, weakening the national ego.
Gun violence may increase which may prompt stricter enforcement of gun control.
It would make them spend less on defense.
It would make many more people dependant on welfare, expanding social programs.
Lower overall income would make the government crack down on shady financial institutions and the out of control pharma industry.
Government would maybe have some motivation for tax reform and cracking down on tax evaders.

That's all hypothetical of course but it sounds nice. The US has mostly made policy from a position of strength and rarely out of weakness, which explains why there are so few policies that help the weak or create safenets in case of sudden weakness.

Hmm.. so you believe something like a larger recession would benefit the country then?