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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Doom and Wolfenstein II The New Colossus coming to Switch

fatslob-:O on 18 September 2017
Miyamotoo said:

But FPS doesn't have anything with content. :D

So beacuse 3 games we expect that all games will have 30 fps instead of 60 fps on PS4/XB1, even if all other 3rd party games have same FPS on Switch and PS4/XB1!? Also FPS really depends from devs, of course that NBA 2K18 also could be 60 fps on Switch if devs wanted and sacrifice game graphically more in favor for 60 FPS. Thats not how its working, 2x slower CPU doesn't mean automatically 2x lower frame rate, game could have same FPS despite slower CPU if you sacrifice graphics more. In that case, why Skyrim isnt 15 FPS on Switch instead of 30FPS same like it is on PS4/XB1, or why Rocket League on Switch inst 30FPS instead of 60FPS same like on PS4/XB1.

@Bold It doesn't since it's not obvious at first but content is designed around performance targets ... (So if the same content on home consoles doesn't run at an acceptable performance on Switch, devs might feel it to be best to change the game content in order to suit the system such as EA omitting journey mode in FIFA 18 on Switch to hit 60FPS or Bethesda cutting level editor in Doom on Switch so that the game maintains consistent performance target.) 

Sometimes games are limited by CPU instead and it shows when PS4 Pro isn't able to get 60FPS in most of the current gen AAA games and don't even use Skyrim as a comparison point when the vast majority of remastered last gen AAA games were able to hit 60FPS on home consoles such as Halo: MCC, Uncharted: NDC, Bioshock: TC, Borderlands: THC, Gears, Dark Souls 2, DmC, Metro Redux, TLOU, Dead Rising 1/2, Resident Evil 5/Revelations 2 and even cross-gen AAA games were able to offer 60FPS on current gen consoles such as BF4, Titanfall, DQH1/2, MGSV, Dynasty Warriors 8, Yakuza but even if some of them weren't able to like GTAV, Watch Dogs or Shadow of Mordor they at least offered higher NPC traffic/draw distance or more refined gameplay (nemesis system is very different depending on generation) to make use of the extra CPU power ... 

Nobody has to worry about Skyrim running 15FPS on Switch since it's a last gen game and current gen AAA 30FPS games don't have as much leeway as indie games like Rocket League does on the CPU side to be able to run acceptably on the Switch ... 



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curl-6 on 18 September 2017
Puppyroach said:
Kyuu said:

This message will only be delivered when enough Switch owners actually buy them. Porting games of that level to a weaker system is relatively costly. So not meeting the sales target would send the wrong kind of message instead.

Hopefully us Switch owners will continue to be in the bying mood, like we have been so far 🙂.

Yeah I do hope Switch owners put their money where their mouth is and buy third party games, because if they don't sell, then third parties will stop bringing their games to Switch.



Miyamotoo on 19 September 2017
fatslob-:O said:
Miyamotoo said:

But FPS doesn't have anything with content. :D

So beacuse 3 games we expect that all games will have 30 fps instead of 60 fps on PS4/XB1, even if all other 3rd party games have same FPS on Switch and PS4/XB1!? Also FPS really depends from devs, of course that NBA 2K18 also could be 60 fps on Switch if devs wanted and sacrifice game graphically more in favor for 60 FPS. Thats not how its working, 2x slower CPU doesn't mean automatically 2x lower frame rate, game could have same FPS despite slower CPU if you sacrifice graphics more. In that case, why Skyrim isnt 15 FPS on Switch instead of 30FPS same like it is on PS4/XB1, or why Rocket League on Switch inst 30FPS instead of 60FPS same like on PS4/XB1.

@Bold It doesn't since it's not obvious at first but content is designed around performance targets ... (So if the same content on home consoles doesn't run at an acceptable performance on Switch, devs might feel it to be best to change the game content in order to suit the system such as EA omitting journey mode in FIFA 18 on Switch to hit 60FPS or Bethesda cutting level editor in Doom on Switch so that the game maintains consistent performance target.) 

Sometimes games are limited by CPU instead and it shows when PS4 Pro isn't able to get 60FPS in most of the current gen AAA games and don't even use Skyrim as a comparison point when the vast majority of remastered last gen AAA games were able to hit 60FPS on home consoles such as Halo: MCC, Uncharted: NDC, Bioshock: TC, Borderlands: THC, Gears, Dark Souls 2, DmC, Metro Redux, TLOU, Dead Rising 1/2, Resident Evil 5/Revelations 2 and even cross-gen AAA games were able to offer 60FPS on current gen consoles such as BF4, Titanfall, DQH1/2, MGSV, Dynasty Warriors 8, Yakuza but even if some of them weren't able to like GTAV, Watch Dogs or Shadow of Mordor they at least offered higher NPC traffic/draw distance or more refined gameplay (nemesis system is very different depending on generation) to make use of the extra CPU power ... 

Nobody has to worry about Skyrim running 15FPS on Switch since it's a last gen game and current gen AAA 30FPS games don't have as much leeway as indie games like Rocket League does on the CPU side to be able to run acceptably on the Switch ... 

Fifa is only example because Journey Mode works only in Frostbite 4 engine, level editor on Doom on Switch doesn't have anything with performance, and we stil dont know at what FPS game is runing on Switch, Doom on Switch have even multiplayer.

You dont get it, every game could run on Pro even on base PS4 in 60fps if that is priority for devs, simply buy downgrading graphics, but in most cases you cant have "true next gen graphics" and 60 FPS in same time on PS4, even on PRO. So NBA 2K18 could also run at 60 fps on Switch with more downgraded graphics. And if you want to talk about FPS, fact is that most of PS4/XB1 games are 30 FPS. Offcourese I will use Skyrim like example beacuse its game that will exist on all 3 consoles.. Again currently only 3 multiplatform games on Switch have different FPS compared to PS4/XB1 versions of games.

But thats Special version of Skyrim, with upgraded graphics, Switch version of Skyrim is also Special edition. About Rocket League, devs said that for that game 60 fps is priority and that's why game will most likely be 720p on Switch, so they probably could make 1080p/30FPS for Switch if they wanted, but they didn't because focus was on 60 FPS. My point is simple, offcourse that you will have some games that will run at lower FPS or will have downgraded graphics on Switch compared to PS4/XB1 versions of game beacuse weaker hardware, but that doesnt automaticly means that 60FPS on PS4/XB1 means 30FPS on Switch, actually most of them run at same frame rate (again you have just 3 examples), and that really depends from devs priorities.



h2ohno on 19 September 2017

In terms of content the issue is usually not going to be the power of the system but the storage capacity of the cartridges. Doom is 60 gigs on my PC, while the Switch game cartridges are 32 gigs max. Downgrading the assets could help with that, and there are ways to be much more efficient with the file size (Titanfall 1's having dozens of gigabytes dedicated only to sound data is a prime example), but when push comes to shove things may have to be cut to save a few gigs here and there. That's why multiplayer has to downloaded separately from the physical copy of Doom. In the era of downloads having that option also mitigates the problem.



fatslob-:O on 19 September 2017
Miyamotoo said:

Fifa is only example because Journey Mode works only in Frostbite 4 engine, level editor on Doom on Switch doesn't have anything with performance, and we stil dont know at what FPS game is runing on Switch, Doom on Switch have even multiplayer.

Fifa 18 runs on Frostbite 3 ... 

I also wouldn't count out the level editor being impactful since some maps can get pretty busy and consume lot's of memory ...

Miyamotoo said:

You dont get it, every game could run on Pro even on base PS4 in 60fps if that is priority for devs, simply buy downgrading graphics, but in most cases you cant have "true next gen graphics" and 60 FPS in same time on PS4, even on PRO. So NBA 2K18 could also run at 60 fps on Switch with more downgraded graphics. And if you want to talk about FPS, fact is that most of PS4/XB1 games are 30 FPS. Offcourese I will use Skyrim like example beacuse its game that will exist on all 3 consoles.. Again currently only 3 multiplatform games on Switch have different FPS compared to PS4/XB1 versions of games.

You're really going to tell me I don't get it ?! LOL ... 

Every game could run 60FPS on PS4 but devs don't want to since they want to enhance the game logic and I don't deny the fact that a good portion of AAA games on home consoles are 30FPS either. You use Skyrim as an example because it's a last gen game ... 

@Bold Hmm, NBA 2K18, DQH1/2, Sonic Forces, I am Setsuna (I won't even count this since it's not a AAA game) so that's already 4 AAA/high high production value games that don't feature the same framerate as the home console equivalents and easy candidates include Doom, Wolfenstein 2, DW8:E, Samurai Warriors, Orochi 3 Ultimate, RE: Revelations 2 and even WWE 2K18 ... 

Miyamotoo said:

But thats Special version of Skyrim, with upgraded graphics, Switch version of Skyrim is also Special edition. About Rocket League, devs said that for that game 60 fps is priority and that's why game will most likely be 720p on Switch, so they probably could make 1080p/30FPS for Switch if they wanted, but they didn't because focus was on 60 FPS. My point is simple, offcourse that you will have some games that will run at lower FPS or will have downgraded graphics on Switch compared to PS4/XB1 versions of game beacuse weaker hardware, but that doesnt automaticly means that 60FPS on PS4/XB1 means 30FPS on Switch, actually most of them run at same frame rate (again you have just 3 examples), and that really depends from devs priorities.

Special edition or not Skyrim is still a last gen game with no improvements to the game logic or the gameplay either ... 

I've got 4 examples and they're AAA games too and there's not many multiplatform games (aside from indies) between the Switch and home consoles to begin with either for comparison points ... (my entire argument was based around AAA games anyway) 



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Miyamotoo on 19 September 2017
fatslob-:O said:
Miyamotoo said:

Fifa is only example because Journey Mode works only in Frostbite 4 engine, level editor on Doom on Switch doesn't have anything with performance, and we stil dont know at what FPS game is runing on Switch, Doom on Switch have even multiplayer.

Fifa 18 runs on Frostbite 3 ... 

I also wouldn't count out the level editor being impactful since some maps can get pretty busy and consume lot's of memory ...

Miyamotoo said:

You dont get it, every game could run on Pro even on base PS4 in 60fps if that is priority for devs, simply buy downgrading graphics, but in most cases you cant have "true next gen graphics" and 60 FPS in same time on PS4, even on PRO. So NBA 2K18 could also run at 60 fps on Switch with more downgraded graphics. And if you want to talk about FPS, fact is that most of PS4/XB1 games are 30 FPS. Offcourese I will use Skyrim like example beacuse its game that will exist on all 3 consoles.. Again currently only 3 multiplatform games on Switch have different FPS compared to PS4/XB1 versions of games.

You're really going to tell me I don't get it ?! LOL ... 

Every game could run 60FPS on PS4 but devs don't want to since they want to enhance the game logic and I don't deny the fact that a good portion of AAA games on home consoles are 30FPS either. You use Skyrim as an example because it's a last gen game ... 

@Bold Hmm, NBA 2K18, DQH1/2, Sonic Forces, I am Setsuna (I won't even count this since it's not a AAA game) so that's already 4 AAA/high high production value games that don't feature the same framerate as the home console equivalents and easy candidates include Doom, Wolfenstein 2, DW8:E, Samurai Warriors, Orochi 3 Ultimate, RE: Revelations 2 and even WWE 2K18 ... 

Miyamotoo said:

But thats Special version of Skyrim, with upgraded graphics, Switch version of Skyrim is also Special edition. About Rocket League, devs said that for that game 60 fps is priority and that's why game will most likely be 720p on Switch, so they probably could make 1080p/30FPS for Switch if they wanted, but they didn't because focus was on 60 FPS. My point is simple, offcourse that you will have some games that will run at lower FPS or will have downgraded graphics on Switch compared to PS4/XB1 versions of game beacuse weaker hardware, but that doesnt automaticly means that 60FPS on PS4/XB1 means 30FPS on Switch, actually most of them run at same frame rate (again you have just 3 examples), and that really depends from devs priorities.

Special edition or not Skyrim is still a last gen game with no improvements to the game logic or the gameplay either ... 

I've got 4 examples and they're AAA games too and there's not many multiplatform games (aside from indies) between the Switch and home consoles to begin with either for comparison points ... (my entire argument was based around AAA games anyway) 

Yes, Frostbite 3, my bad.

Map editor is not really important or deal breaker in any case.

 

Ofcourse I will, fact that you said that 2x slower CPU means 30FPS instead 60FPS proves you are dont know too much abut this staffs.

Actually majority of AAA games on PS4 are 30FPS, 60FPS are mostly sport games, FPS and smaller games. I use Skyrim like example of one of AAA 3rd party games on Switch, and that "last gen" Skyrim is 30 FPS on PS4 also.

Great you found 4 games, that still don't proves that ever PS4 60FPS games on Switch will run at 30 FPS. Stick to facts, we still dont know at what frame rate those games will work on Switch, and again that depends from devs and their priorities, better graphics or 60FPS.

 

It has graphic upgrades but not frame rate upgrade.

I am Setsuna definitely is not AAA game.



NATO on 19 September 2017

 

 



Nautilus on 19 September 2017
NATO said:
Miyamotoo said:

So we talking about huge differences if we talk about playing some game on Switch in full handheld mode compared to playing some game on other platform in portable mode. With Switch, you get full home console and full handheld experience with one device, and you getting that without streaming or need for internet connection, and thats actualy huge advantage for games on Switch compared to same games on PS4/XB1/PC.

But it isn't, the portability is only a "big deal" when fans of the switch are talking about it, for indies and 2d games that may be the case since the game doesnt have to suffer in the translation and can add it's own portable flair to it with device-specific changes to the gameplay.

But to everyone else, who already played and beat doom on pc, ps4 or xbox one, ask them "do you want to play the game again on a portable" the answer from most would be no, and the few that would, all of the streaming options for those users, are cheaper than buying a switch+doom, sure it isn't running natively on a handheld but that has as many advantages as it does disadvantages.

disadvantages:
Requires stable net connection
Requires the game be running on your pc/console that's also connected to the net

advantages:
Can be played for longer, since streaming uses less power than running natively
Can be played at the original graphical quality, no downgrade to textures, geometry, etc.

With the exception of the Vita, most PC/XB/PS owners also already own a device that can, either directly or with slight effort, be used to stream the game anyway, (smartphone is enough in most cases).

Pulling out the "but it's portable" card to salvage a situation when a game has clear downgrades/missing features isn't a magic bullet, it won't be at the best of times, but doing so on a fast paced FPS is even more of an issue, because FPs historically play poorly on handhelds.

Many users here are willing to buy the game because of the portability though.And many of them arent the biggest Nintendo fans.Portability is a big deal for any game for many people, Nintendo fans or whatnot.Assuming the game maintains a certain level of quality.

Which brings up the point thatw e dont know that yet.Though we will know by tomorrow, if Im not mistaken(embargo on the previews should lift tomorrow).So lets hold this discussion until then.It will make it more productive.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

fatslob-:O on 19 September 2017
Miyamotoo said:

Ofcourse I will, fact that you said that 2x slower CPU means 30FPS instead 60FPS proves you are dont know too much abut this staffs.

A 2x slower CPU does mean 30FPS instead of 60FPS unless there's a low enough overhead on the CPU side and we can see this with the majority of AAA games so far ... (The only current/cross-gen AAA game on the Switch that did maintain the same framerate as the home console versions was FIFA 18 so that means 4/5 current/cross-gen AAA games on the Switch has downgraded framerate.) 

Miyamotoo said:

Actually majority of AAA games on PS4 are 30FPS, 60FPS are mostly sport games, FPS and smaller games. I use Skyrim like example of one of AAA 3rd party games on Switch, and that "last gen" Skyrim is 30 FPS on PS4 also.

I am not denying that the majority of AAA games on the PS4 is 30FPS and you can you use Skyrim as much as you want since I was only arguing in specific to current/cross-gen AAA games ... 

Miyamotoo said:

Great you found 4 games, that still don't proves that ever PS4 60FPS games on Switch will run at 30 FPS. Stick to facts, we still dont know at what frame rate those games will work on Switch, and again that depends from devs and their priorities, better graphics or 60FPS.

You used Skyrim as an example since it's easily the lowbar when I was talking about current gen AAA games ... (Skyrim isn't even a cross-gen title, it's a last gen title with no next gen version in mind.) 

We don't know the framerate of those other AAA game ports but if I had to guess most of them will either end up with 30FPS or cut content/different gameplay mechanics ...



Pemalite on 19 September 2017
fatslob-:O said:

Special edition or not Skyrim is still a last gen game with no improvements to the game logic or the gameplay either ... 

I've got 4 examples and they're AAA games too and there's not many multiplatform games (aside from indies) between the Switch and home consoles to begin with either for comparison points ... (my entire argument was based around AAA games anyway) 

Skyrim is always going to be a terrible argument.

It's still using a NetImmerse turned Gamebryo turned Creation engine dating back 15 years with a few enhancements.
The game wasn't even technically impressive upon release last console generation.

So of course it should translate well over to the Switch.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--