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Forums - Sony Discussion - The Last Guardian vs The Last of Us

vivster said:
LethalP said:

How does The Last Of Us have shitty gameplay? It has moments of questionable pcing, but the gameplay is well designed mostly.

The gameplay is generic, boring and constantly breaks immersion and pacing in an awesome world with awesome characters and an awesome story. If you remove 100% of the gameplay and replace it with cutscenes it will be a better movie than it could ever be a game. And if gameplay is the single worst thing that is happening in your game and it makes people hope that it is over soon, so they can get more of the story then, yes, it's very shitty gameplay.

That's just bullshit, the bolded. First off if you have ever watched a good movie you'd know that if anything TLOU's subtext is what's generic. There's some good voice acting and delivery, but the writing of dialogue itself is hardly interesting and sometimes even overly dramatic, In a way most films of the same critical acclaim aren't. There's nuances to film that not even TLOU or Rockstar games have, like for example the use of interesting cinematography, which can literally make or break a scene in a good movie. In TLOU you're getting soap opera pans, as apose to say a Sam Mendez film like Road To Perdition which has impeccable cinematography. Scenes where not even that much is happening and nothing is being said, but you understand the mood it's trying to convey because of it's good execution. TLOU is playschool in comparison.

Now to my point, the story is far from what makes TLOU a good game. It's good in it's overall pacing despite it's flaws. From the design of the environments to the scattering of guns/bullets/recources making it well balanced, especially in higher difficulties. The idea that the same materials are required for a molotov, which can be relatively OP, and a med pack presents to the player a dilemma. A simple one, yet extremely effective because a molotov could prepare you for a group of clickers later, but good luck getting there with that low health bar. 

The combat itself with the weighty guns and great sound design. Gunshots look and sound lethal, melee is simple but also conveys the concept of knocking someone senseless really well. It's stealth elements are fairly shallow, but again for what's there it's execution is good and you can come up with some really cool fights in the game.

What it does not so well has been covered to death on the internet, you know, because it's critically acclaimed so naturally the internet has to be all like ''muh overrated'', because of a quasi-trending video they saw on youtube shitting on it. It's AI can do stupid things, like Ellie running right in front of an enemy and them not reacting. The environmental puzzles that can get boring and repetative. The moments of walking and talking where you can only listen while pushing up. I get it. But those problems are outnumbered by a really well designed third person shooter campaign in a compelling world, with combat encounters that require you to think on your feet and not just run and gun. It's not a case of this being my opinion, it literally does have well designed traits, quite a lot of them. And the gaming community at large has acknowledged them. Saying it has bad gameplay is lazy.



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LethalP said:
vivster said:

The gameplay is generic, boring and constantly breaks immersion and pacing in an awesome world with awesome characters and an awesome story. If you remove 100% of the gameplay and replace it with cutscenes it will be a better movie than it could ever be a game. And if gameplay is the single worst thing that is happening in your game and it makes people hope that it is over soon, so they can get more of the story then, yes, it's very shitty gameplay.

That's just bullshit, the bolded. First off if you have ever watched a good movie you'd know that if anything TLOU's subtext is what's generic. There's some good voice acting and delivery, but the writing of dialogue itself is hardly interesting and sometimes even overly dramatic, In a way most films of the same critical acclaim aren't. There's nuances to film that not even TLOU or Rockstar games have, like for example the use of interesting cinematography, which can literally make or break a scene in a good movie. In TLOU you're getting soap opera pans, as apose to say a Sam Mendez film like Road To Perdition which has impeccable cinematography. Scenes where not even that much is happening and nothing is being said, but you understand the mood it's trying to convey because of it's good execution. TLOU is playschool in comparison.

Now to my point, the story is far from what makes TLOU a good game. It's good in it's overall pacing despite it's flaws. From the design of the environments to the scattering of guns/bullets/recources making it well balanced, especially in higher difficulties. The idea that the same materials are required for a molotov, which can be relatively OP, and a med pack presents to the player a dilemma. A simple one, yet extremely effective because a molotov could prepare you for a group of clickers later, but good luck getting there with that low health bar. 

The combat itself with the weighty guns and great sound design. Gunshots look and sound lethal, melee is simple but also conveys the concept of knocking someone senseless really well. It's stealth elements are fairly shallow, but again for what's there it's execution is good and you can come up with some really cool fights in the game.

What it does not so well has been covered to death on the internet, you know, because it's critically acclaimed so naturally the internet has to be all like ''muh overrated'', because of a quasi-trending video they saw on youtube shitting on it. It's AI can do stupid things, like Ellie running right in front of an enemy and them not reacting. The environmental puzzles that can get boring and repetative. The moments of walking and talking where you can only listen while pushing up. I get it. But those problems are outnumbered by a really well designed third person shooter campaign in a compelling world, with combat encounters that require you to think on your feet and not just run and gun. It's not a case of this being my opinion, it literally does have well designed traits, quite a lot of them. And the gaming community at large has acknowledged them. Saying it has bad gameplay is lazy.

Listing all the good and bad things of a game and then applying math is not how reviews work, at least not how they should work. All the great things about the game mean nothing when I sit in front of my TV moaning that I have to do boring gameplay again.

In the end it's all about how you weight it. And in my case I gave the game a solid 9 and it was the best game of that year for me. But god beware when I criticize the most terrible thing of the game. Apparently finding the gameplay boring means that I hated the game.

That ND cannot do gameplay they showed plenty with Uncharted, which is another boring linear exercise just to waste time between cutscenes. Except that in Uncharted the story is also quite boring and predictable, contrary to TLOU.

BTW, Ellie not being detected is not an AI flaw, it was willingly programmed that way to make it easier. Which just shows that ND couldn't give a rat's ass how well their gameplay fits with the rest. In the end they just want to make big epic set pieces connected by a thin thread they call story and with the shiniest pixels available. And they do that very well. But they're doing it in the wrong category and still try to claim their products are games.

ND should just do their own epic tv show like GOT. That way they don't have to deal with filler gameplay and can script as much as they want.



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siebensus4 said:
I bought a PS4 for The Last Guardian – and during the first hour I have known that it was a right decision. When you play video games for almost 30 years (like I do) you somehow get the impression that you have seen everything which could be done within the video game genre. But finding a game like The Last Guardian with such an unique gaming experience is something everyone should be grateful for. I mean, please tell me another action adventure where you don't have a weapon and you can sit down anytime you want to enjoy the peaceful yet mystic setting beside your friend.

I mean, I got sick and tired of video games at all during the PS3/X360/Wii era because of first/third person shooters all over the way and motion controls. And then (after I almost gave up hope in video games at all) there appears a game which completely draws my attention and even exceed all my expectations – and finally turns out the be one of the best games of all time. Maybe not for everyone, because it's a love it or hate it game (like every Ueda game). But let's say it's something special and definitely not a game you can find everyday.

I haven't played The Last of Us, although I like post-apocalyptic settings. But I'm not a fan of quick time events and long cut scenes since Shenmue on Dreamcast – and Resident Evil 4 for Gamecube was already a very good zombie game. Don't get me wrong, I think TLoU is technically a very good game, but I don't think it's anything really new to experience (besides excellent graphics) and I can't imagine that it's such a timeless masterpiece like The Last Guardian.

Probably all Ueda games are timeless unique gaming experiences if you look at the core ideas he wants to transmit. Ico could be seen as the mother of all indie games and Shadow of the Colossus was maybe the first game which lets you feel sympathy for the enemies you kill (and is one of 80 games at the American Art Museum). You should really have a look for the 2018 remake of SotC coming for PS4, if you have missed the original.

Man, I feel like we had very similar experiences haha. I can't say that I've got 30 yrs of gaming under my belt because I'm not even that old, but I have been gaming since the n64 days. Like you, I have also tried probably most types of games out there. It got to a point where I actually quit gaming a bit after destiny came out and didn't come back a few months ago. So when I got this game, I wasnt going in with big expectations but it blew me out of my mind. I fell in love with it lol. The last of us is good, even great but for me it didn't have as much an impact as it probably should've. Maybe had I played it when it came out on ps3 it would've been a different story. 

 

Yes I did miss that one and ico, but after playing this game I'll definitely be picking up that shadow of the colossus remake whenever it hits. 



I have a book about TLG (The Last Guardian - An extraordinary Story, ISBN 978-3869930800), which explains many of the misunderstandings regarding this game.

For example: Development
Actually, the title was hardly in development between 2011 and 2014. Fumito Ueda left Sony 2011 and founded genDESIGN 2014. Here is the reason, why TLG could not be released on PS3 as planned:
"The structure and flow of the level disign was actually fixed and completed on PlayStation 3 (along with the puzzles and functioning AI), though there were issues with the game running out of memory and not hitting the targeted 30 frames per second, and the game could only be completed by pulling up a debug menu to change levels (rather than the seamless interconnected experience we see in the final game). The cutscenes didn't exist then either: Tanji [scenario writer at genDESIGN] began helping out with storyboards for them beginning around late 2014."

And more misunderstandings regardings the AI of Trico:
The behavior of Trico (and how good he obeys to the boy's orders) depends on
- how many barrels Trico has eaten
- how quickly you have pulled out the spears out of Trico's body
- and even how much and where (!) you pet it

And then the camera and controls of the boy... I mean, the developers chose the difficult option and put Trico in narrow buildings to underline his height of 6 meters and length of 17 meters. Everyone knows that programming a camera in small rooms is a pain in the ass, but additionally we have a big AI moving in small rooms. That's so damn difficult get a good looking result. Of course you can't get the best cinematic camera angles when you always can move in any direction you want.
I was by the way very impressed by the interaction between the boy and the environment. I have never seen such a good animation of legs and arms touching the environment – almost without clipping. There are so many calculations to be done, and of course this causes an input lag. In fact I have activated the movie mode on my TV to get a smooth 60 fps experience, so I played with an input lag of more than 100ms. It was fine. Maybe sometimes a bit difficult, but OK. So what's the point? Every game has it's own rules.

Some other details many don't notice are:
- the boy has 8 levels of growth of his tattoos (related to how often the boy is grabbed by enemies)
- there are 4 different types of Yoroi (soldiers) during the game
- you can smooth Trico's feathers and clean off the dirt and blood by petting them

And of course you can find many things that were cut during the development process in the book I mentioned above.

The true legacy for the video game industry is of course Trico's AI. Actually you can beat the game almost without giving Trico any commands. I played the first hours without commands – it worked fine. Maybe you need to be a bit patient, but that's something which is pretty hard for some people for various reasons.



siebensus4 said:
I have a book about TLG (The Last Guardian - An extraordinary Story, ISBN 978-3869930800), which explains many of the misunderstandings regarding this game.

For example: Development
Actually, the title was hardly in development between 2011 and 2014. Fumito Ueda left Sony 2011 and founded genDESIGN 2014. Here is the reason, why TLG could not be released on PS3 as planned:
"The structure and flow of the level disign was actually fixed and completed on PlayStation 3 (along with the puzzles and functioning AI), though there were issues with the game running out of memory and not hitting the targeted 30 frames per second, and the game could only be completed by pulling up a debug menu to change levels (rather than the seamless interconnected experience we see in the final game). The cutscenes didn't exist then either: Tanji [scenario writer at genDESIGN] began helping out with storyboards for them beginning around late 2014."

And more misunderstandings regardings the AI of Trico:
The behavior of Trico (and how good he obeys to the boy's orders) depends on
- how many barrels Trico has eaten
- how quickly you have pulled out the spears out of Trico's body
- and even how much and where (!) you pet it

And then the camera and controls of the boy... I mean, the developers chose the difficult option and put Trico in narrow buildings to underline his height of 6 meters and length of 17 meters. Everyone knows that programming a camera in small rooms is a pain in the ass, but additionally we have a big AI moving in small rooms. That's so damn difficult get a good looking result. Of course you can't get the best cinematic camera angles when you always can move in any direction you want.
I was by the way very impressed by the interaction between the boy and the environment. I have never seen such a good animation of legs and arms touching the environment – almost without clipping. There are so many calculations to be done, and of course this causes an input lag. In fact I have activated the movie mode on my TV to get a smooth 60 fps experience, so I played with an input lag of more than 100ms. It was fine. Maybe sometimes a bit difficult, but OK. So what's the point? Every game has it's own rules.

Some other details many don't notice are:
- the boy has 8 levels of growth of his tattoos (related to how often the boy is grabbed by enemies)
- there are 4 different types of Yoroi (soldiers) during the game
- you can smooth Trico's feathers and clean off the dirt and blood by petting them

And of course you can find many things that were cut during the development process in the book I mentioned above.

The true legacy for the video game industry is of course Trico's AI. Actually you can beat the game almost without giving Trico any commands. I played the first hours without commands – it worked fine. Maybe you need to be a bit patient, but that's something which is pretty hard for some people for various reasons.

Thanks for the tip, that book looks very interesting. On my wishlist.

The movement and navigation of Trico in the narrow environments is amazing. Sure a lot of it is scripted / movement on rails, however the transistions are seamless and it all flows very naturally. Plus it was a joy just to observe his idle routines. The animation of the boy is excellent as well, all determined by momentum and inertia of his individual body parts. Which is why he seems so clumsy when you wildly run around tripping over everything. (They should have added a brisk walk intermediate step for the inpatient) When you start to compensate for his momentum you can navigate him through most obstacles quite efficiently. I played Tombraider after TLG and that was a very jarring step back in character animation. Easier to control sure, also very unnatural and immersion breaking.

The only fault I had with the game is that there was a point where Trico did get stuck on my first playthrough. Maybe by doing things out of order and confusing him yet he was most definately stuck. Still moving ofcourse but not listening to commands, reloading a save solved it.