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Forums - Politics Discussion - Senator John McCain casts deciding vote against "Skinny Repeal"

 

Healthcare you want for the US

Single Payer (All taxes) 83 57.24%
 
Multi-Payer (Government option) 24 16.55%
 
Heavy regulations (Capita... 6 4.14%
 
Moderate regulation 14 9.66%
 
No regulation 14 9.66%
 
Alternative Medicine 4 2.76%
 
Total:145
Mr Puggsly on 28 July 2017
Puppyroach said:
Mr Puggsly said:

At the cost of higher premiums and deductables for the people actually paying in. While working people who can't afford insurance premiums were hit with ridiculous penalties. Even the dems fully admit ACA is flawed, its not just republicans pointing it out.

We could bring obesity to an all time low if we simply made obesity a crime. That's essentially how ACA works, get insurance or you will be punished. If you don't work or make little money, you'll get free healthcare via the people actually paying in.

You could even get free insurance by simply requesting to work less hours, you would fall into a bracket that doesn't make enough money and qualifies for free healthcare. So some people benefit by simply staying home more.

I want everybody to have access to quality healthcare, but ACA was objectively a shit way to do it. There are way to make healthcare more affordable in this country, that's not what ACA accomplished.

Yes, it is flawed since the way to go would be universal healthcare. That the premiums were raised for some people is a result of having a private insurance market that has to cater to shareholders and profit. Also, premiums haven't risen as fast as they would have pre-ACA as far as I've heard? So no, it's deeply flawed but definitively not broken.

I think people don't consider it would be easier for us to consider single payer healthcare if we had more faith in our government and its spending. With no shareholders to please or profits to worry about, our country is still terrible at the spending thing. That's kinda why we have massive debt. Quite frankly, our government doesn't do anything better than private companies.

Hence, if Canada has long waits due to a lack of money in healthcare. Then we'll all be dead before we see a doctor under single payer.

Obama and dems have said they want to fix ACA. Why fix something if its not broken?



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Mr Puggsly on 28 July 2017
Ka-pi96 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I think people don't consider it would be easier for us to consider single payer healthcare if we had more faith in our government and its spending. With no shareholders to please or profits to worry about, our country is still terrible at the spending thing. That's kinda why we have massive debt. Quite frankly, our government doesn't do anything better than private companies.

Hence, if Canada has long waits due to a lack of money in healthcare. Then we'll all be dead before we see a doctor under single payer.

Obama and dems have said they want to fix ACA. Why fix something if its not broken?

Isn't that partly due to the sheer size of Canada though? It's an absolutely huge country, so it's going to need doctors and hospitals all over the place to account for that. US would need the same, but they have like 10 times the population, so if everybody was paying for it through taxes they'd likely have 10 times the funding that Canada has as well. Sure, they'd need more total doctors and more equipment and medicine on account of the larger population, but the geographic issues shouldn't be as pronounced as they are in Canada.

State healthcare works pretty well in the UK, where the population is much more in line with the size of the country, so I don't see why it couldn't work in the US as well.

I get what you're saying but the population is by no means spread out equally. Much of the population in the country is on the coast, so that means there is a lot of low populated cities here as well.

Ultimately, long healthcare waits are caused by lack of money. Higher taxes could easily remedy that problem, but how much can you take from the people?

Anywho, there are ways to easily make healthcare more affordable/accessible without giving the government compete control. And again, why give that power to our government when its demonstrated incompetence in almost everything it does.



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Zkuq on 28 July 2017
Mr Puggsly said:

Higher taxes could easily remedy that problem, but how much can you take from the people?

A lot more than the US does. [1] [2]



DonFerrari on 28 July 2017

Waiting for the day anything provided by the government will net being cheaper than the population paying themselves directly since when government provides it's actually population paying through taxes with added cost of corruption, inefficiency, interference and overhead.
But good for VGC users that know how much good government involvement in market is, right?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

sethnintendo on 28 July 2017
Mr Puggsly said:

vivster said:

 The fuck is the government doing to increase the prices?  

You could argue US healthcare is less regulated than single payer countries.

But a free market it's not.

With hidden pricing.  Amazing you don't know how much things cost till all is said and done.  This benefits the hospitals and pricing can vary widely between hospitals in the same area.

 

Here is a genius thought...  Why don't we make pricing more transparent and make hospitals produce a list and price of their procedures.  You know so the average citizen can maybe shop around for the best price for quality of service.  I mean we made fast food start listing calories of their meals so why not demand hospitals list prices.

There are several companies trying to compose lists and pricing such as Castlight health but that depends on if they team up with your employer.  Oh and if government backed out completely I would expect nothing but this shit show to continue.  We are dominated by only a few big companies when it comes to insurance.  You think they will all of sudden have a friendly competition and start lowering prices.  USA is full of monopolies now in every sector of business.



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Nymeria on 28 July 2017
Bandorr said:
I am actually quite amazed at what a huge train wreck this was.

They had 7 to 8 years to come up with a better health plan. Instead they came up with disaster, after disaster.

The House passes a bill. Not because it is ready, but because they are desperate for a photo op and a thumbs up hoping the senate will do all the work for them.

Which ended up with the Senate ALMOST passing a bill they DIDN'T want to pass. Think about that. They Senate almost passed a bill they were afraid the House would pass. Several Senators had to demand pink promises to NOT vote on what the senate JUST voted on.

Something they were actually right in being afraid of, because it sounds like the House was ready to enact "Martial Law" and immediately sign the damn bill. Desperate for another victory.

It is almost like a movie though. Mccain is the tie-breaking vote allowing this disaster to continue forward. It is then Mccain who puts the final bullet in the beast.

This was never about health care, it was about altering tax structure to favor wealthy donors. I'm glad it is failing and an embarassment for those that supported it.  Single payer medicare for all hopefully by 2023 assuming 2018, 2020, 2022 got he way to supporting that shift.



sethnintendo on 28 July 2017
Bandorr said:

Also OP can we get "Susan Collins of Maine and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska" in the OP also? They have actually done more to stop these bills than Mccain.

Something quite poetic about this. Senate shuts out all the women from discussing health care bill - so they tank the health care bill.

Just need the old men in the Senate and House to debate women's reproductive health again.  They obviously know what's best for the simple minded females.



sethnintendo on 28 July 2017
Hiku said:



Vote for politicians who do not take corporate or pac money.

If you find one of those then let me know.  I don't believe they exist.



DonFerrari on 28 July 2017
sethnintendo said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You could argue US healthcare is less regulated than single payer countries.

But a free market it's not.

With hidden pricing.  Amazing you don't know how much things cost till all is said and done.  This benefits the hospitals and pricing can vary widely between hospitals in the same area.

 

Here is a genius thought...  Why don't we make pricing more transparent and make hospitals produce a list and price of their procedures.  You know so the average citizen can maybe shop around for the best price for quality of service.  I mean we made fast food start listing calories of their meals so why not demand hospitals list prices.

There are several companies trying to compose lists and pricing such as Castlight health but that depends on if they team up with your employer.  Oh and if government backed out completely I would expect nothing but this shit show to continue.  We are dominated by only a few big companies when it comes to insurance.  You think they will all of sudden have a friendly competition and start lowering prices.  USA is full of monopolies now in every sector of business.

You know that cost structure is a sensitive information that basically defines if a company is competitive or not and that releasing that information is basically the destruction of a company? You already have the price they charge to decide if you want to pay or not and for publically traded companies you have their accountability release where you can see how much is their profit margins and verify if they are overcharging or just the cost itself is high.

Ka-pi96 said:
DonFerrari said:
Waiting for the day anything provided by the government will net being cheaper than the population paying themselves directly since when government provides it's actually population paying through taxes with added cost of corruption, inefficiency, interference and overhead.
But good for VGC users that know how much good government involvement in market is, right?

For many people it is cheaper being provided by the government than them paying directly though. Not everybody is rich...

Yes, because other people would be paying. Read again where I put POPULATION and not single person.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

sethnintendo on 28 July 2017
DonFerrari said:
sethnintendo said:

With hidden pricing.  Amazing you don't know how much things cost till all is said and done.  This benefits the hospitals and pricing can vary widely between hospitals in the same area.

 

Here is a genius thought...  Why don't we make pricing more transparent and make hospitals produce a list and price of their procedures.  You know so the average citizen can maybe shop around for the best price for quality of service.  I mean we made fast food start listing calories of their meals so why not demand hospitals list prices.

There are several companies trying to compose lists and pricing such as Castlight health but that depends on if they team up with your employer.  Oh and if government backed out completely I would expect nothing but this shit show to continue.  We are dominated by only a few big companies when it comes to insurance.  You think they will all of sudden have a friendly competition and start lowering prices.  USA is full of monopolies now in every sector of business.

You know that cost structure is a sensitive information that basically defines if a company is competitive or not and that releasing that information is basically the destruction of a company? You already have the price they charge to decide if you want to pay or not and for publically traded companies you have their accountability release where you can see how much is their profit margins and verify if they are overcharging or just the cost itself is high.

 

So you are saying if they release their prices so people know how much they are expected to pay up front they will go under.  What if a fast food company ran its pricing like a hospital where you don't know until you get to the pay window.  So you order a meal thinking it will be 10 dollars and once you get to the window they want 100. 

Most people don't know how much they are going to pay for health service rendered unless they actively take charge and call offices asking them for their prices.  You can say well all people should do that.  Well what happens in an emergency where you either go or are taken to a random hospital.  You don't know shit for pricing if it is an emergency except you know for sure its at least 1,000 charge just to be omitted to the emergency room.