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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump Announces Ban on Transgender People in US Military

 

You support this?

No. 206 29.68%
 
Yes. 311 44.81%
 
^ What the hell is wrong ... 177 25.50%
 
Total:694
FIT_Gamer said:
Aeolus451 said:

It's meant to be read together. You're fixating on that one part.

Was Kristen Beck trasistioning while she was on the seals team or before it or did she after? 

Does it matter? She was already in the mindstate of someone that was transgendered as a teenager. 

That's just the dysphoria. It matters because of the way that alot of people are starting to use "there was trans in the military for years, there's no problem with them". If they served in the military as their biological sex and lived as a biological guy then later transistioned after they we're out of the military, they were just still technically guys then. It doesn't work retroactively.

To further show my point, Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympics decathlon event at the Montreal Olympic Games as a man and not as a trans woman regardless if she is today a trans woman.  This is not same as a gay person winning a golf championship 50 years ago and not being out in the open about his sexuality then later coming out about it. A gay person still won that golf championship 50 years ago. The reason why there's a difference between trans and gay is because one is entirely about identity and the other is about sexual orientation. 



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Aeolus451 said:
FIT_Gamer said:

Does it matter? She was already in the mindstate of someone that was transgendered as a teenager. 

That's just the dysphoria. It matters because of the way that alot of people are starting to use "there was trans in the military for years, there's no problem with them". If they served in the military as their biological sex and lived as a biological guy then later transistioned after they we're out of the military, they were just still technically guys then. It doesn't work retroactively.

To further show my point, Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympics decathlon event at the Montreal Olympic Games as a man and not as a trans woman regardless if she is today a trans woman.  This is not same as a gay person winning a golf championship 50 years ago and not being out in the open about his sexuality then later coming out about it. A gay person still won that golf championship 50 years ago. The reason why there's a difference between trans and gay is because one is entirely about identity and the other is about sexual orientation. 

You seem to have already forgotten the video I posted earlier that interviewed two Transgender military people.  They were both transgender while they were still server, but had to hide it at work.  That doesn't fall into your example of serving and then later in life (years later) becoming trans.  These people literally went home at night and became their real selves, the side they had to hide while at work.



mizzou_guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

That's just the dysphoria. It matters because of the way that alot of people are starting to use "there was trans in the military for years, there's no problem with them". If they served in the military as their biological sex and lived as a biological guy then later transistioned after they we're out of the military, they were just still technically guys then. It doesn't work retroactively.

To further show my point, Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympics decathlon event at the Montreal Olympic Games as a man and not as a trans woman regardless if she is today a trans woman.  This is not same as a gay person winning a golf championship 50 years ago and not being out in the open about his sexuality then later coming out about it. A gay person still won that golf championship 50 years ago. The reason why there's a difference between trans and gay is because one is entirely about identity and the other is about sexual orientation. 

You seem to have already forgotten the video I posted earlier that interviewed two Transgender military people.  They were both transgender while they were still server, but had to hide it at work.  That doesn't fall into your example of serving and then later in life (years later) becoming trans.  These people literally went home at night and became their real selves, the side they had to hide while at work.

The woman transitioned while on active duty and deployed. The guy didn't physically transition (his reasons, to stay in military/keep benefits) but socially transitioned outside of work, wearing guy clothes, acting like a guy and using a guy's name in public. His co-workers/bosses likely knew he was trans because of that but left it alone. I don't really call any of that hiding. You were wrong about your examples especially with the woman. *shrugs. 

While I do agree that there's plenty who wanted to transition but hide it completely til they were out, there's likely plenty who later figured out they wanted to transition after they were out of the military. My point still stands. 



The backlash has been massive, the cheeto will never live it down.



Aeolus451 said:
mizzou_guy said:

You seem to have already forgotten the video I posted earlier that interviewed two Transgender military people.  They were both transgender while they were still server, but had to hide it at work.  That doesn't fall into your example of serving and then later in life (years later) becoming trans.  These people literally went home at night and became their real selves, the side they had to hide while at work.

The woman transitioned while on active duty and deployed. The guy didn't physically transition (his reasons, to stay in military/keep benefits) but socially transitioned outside of work, wearing guy clothes, acting like a guy and using a guy's name in public. His co-workers/bosses likely knew he was trans because of that but left it alone. I don't really call any of that hiding. You were wrong about your examples especially with the woman. *shrugs. 

While I do agree that there's plenty who wanted to transition but hide it completely til they were out, there's likely plenty who later figured out they wanted to transition after they were out of the military. My point still stands. 

In the video, she says she was deployed in Afghanistan while on hormone therapy in the middle of her transition.  She then says that word got out about her being transgender, command called her up, and Command asked her to retire.  This certainly sounds like she was hiding her transgender identity at work somehow, even though she was going through hormone therapy.  I don't know how, but if "word got out," then it doesn't sound like something she was declaring openly.

The guy says that he "hide in his true self" while at work and was miserable.  It doesn't sound like he was likely out at work, as you think.

These two examples hold that there have been transgender individuals in the military for years.  I'm not sure why you have such a nitpicky stance on only identifying them as so at certain points later and not conceding they were transgender while serving as they are identifying themselves as such.

I don't think I'm going to reply to this anymore, because going back and forth with you is like arguing with a wall.  You're very quick to nitpick small falacies in everyone else's arguments, but you struggle to identify the same falacies in your own.



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mizzou_guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

The woman transitioned while on active duty and deployed. The guy didn't physically transition (his reasons, to stay in military/keep benefits) but socially transitioned outside of work, wearing guy clothes, acting like a guy and using a guy's name in public. His co-workers/bosses likely knew he was trans because of that but left it alone. I don't really call any of that hiding. You were wrong about your examples especially with the woman. *shrugs. 

While I do agree that there's plenty who wanted to transition but hide it completely til they were out, there's likely plenty who later figured out they wanted to transition after they were out of the military. My point still stands. 

In the video, she says she was deployed in Afghanistan while on hormone therapy in the middle of her transition.  She then says that word got out about her being transgender, command called her up, and Command asked her to retire.  This certainly sounds like she was hiding her transgender identity at work somehow, even though she was going through hormone therapy.  I don't know how, but if "word got out," then it doesn't sound like something she was declaring openly.

The guy says that he "hide in his true self" while at work and was miserable.  It doesn't sound like he was likely out at work, as you think.

These two examples hold that there have been transgender individuals in the military for years.  I'm not sure why you have such a nitpicky stance on only identifying them as so at certain points later and not conceding they were transgender while serving as they are identifying themselves as such.

I don't think I'm going to reply to this anymore, because going back and forth with you is like arguing with a wall.  You're very quick to nitpick small falacies in everyone else's arguments, but you struggle to identify the same falacies in your own.

Now you understand why I stopped wasting my time.



FIT_Gamer said:
Koupa said:
Perfectly understandable.

The mentally ill should not be in the military and trusted with weapons.

What about the non-transgender mentally ill that will still be allowed to serve? Or former soldiers who are mentally ill that are trusted and allowed to purchase weapons as civilians?

What of them? They also shouldn't be in the military or have weapons. Just because those mentally ill people are allowed doesn't mean the transgendered mentally ill should as well.



gatito said:
The backlash has been massive, the cheeto will never live it down.

That's just a sign of the times though, everyone is extremely sensitive to laughable levels now. 

It's all for the best though. We don't need trannies in the military if they've got access to weapons, they're not mentally stable so it could easily backfire.



mizzou_guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

The woman transitioned while on active duty and deployed. The guy didn't physically transition (his reasons, to stay in military/keep benefits) but socially transitioned outside of work, wearing guy clothes, acting like a guy and using a guy's name in public. His co-workers/bosses likely knew he was trans because of that but left it alone. I don't really call any of that hiding. You were wrong about your examples especially with the woman. *shrugs. 

While I do agree that there's plenty who wanted to transition but hide it completely til they were out, there's likely plenty who later figured out they wanted to transition after they were out of the military. My point still stands. 

In the video, she says she was deployed in Afghanistan while on hormone therapy in the middle of her transition.  She then says that word got out about her being transgender, command called her up, and Command asked her to retire.  This certainly sounds like she was hiding her transgender identity at work somehow, even though she was going through hormone therapy.  I don't know how, but if "word got out," then it doesn't sound like something she was declaring openly.

The guy says that he "hide in his true self" while at work and was miserable.  It doesn't sound like he was likely out at work, as you think.

These two examples hold that there have been transgender individuals in the military for years.  I'm not sure why you have such a nitpicky stance on only identifying them as so at certain points later and not conceding they were transgender while serving as they are identifying themselves as such.

I don't think I'm going to reply to this anymore, because going back and forth with you is like arguing with a wall.  You're very quick to nitpick small falacies in everyone else's arguments, but you struggle to identify the same falacies in your own.

You and the others haven't made any points with anything backing it to get me to concede on my main points. You're only using a handful of interviews with one or two trans people. They don't represent the whole of trans people in the miltary so you can't go by that. I'm not debating that there's not people in the military who are trans and hide it but I am debating that not even most people who were in the military and later identified as trans were trans while they were in the military.

Since this is your last response and the others have pretty much quieted down, this will be last one as well but I'll make my last point with why trans shouldn't be in the military as a whole. 

The military denies everyone on a categorical level with certain ailments, birth defects, disorders, been on certain meds, etc regardless of who they are and trans should be no different in that regard. It should also be on that list. The reasons why is because of their higher chances of depression and suicide. A history of long lasting depression or bouts of it could easily be grounds for disqualification for enlistment in and of itself.  Here's are some sources on their mental health.

 

This one is fairly obvious in what it's on but it talks the reasons why too. Sadly, it's gonna take time for society to get used to trans people and everyone is accepting of it. This one links some studies.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/transgender-people-more-likely-develop-depression-and-anxiety-247044

 

This is one is about a survey on the high suicide rate amoung trans in general. I don't really like surveys tbh.

https://www.livescience.com/11208-high-suicide-risk-prejudice-plague-transgender-people.html

 

This article just explains the findings of a study on suicide rates of trans vets. It's fairly interesting. 

http://www.sciencecodex.com/are_transgender_veterans_at_greater_risk_of_suicide-147608

 

Here is a link to the website with the study itself. You'l have to download a pdf to look at the actual study though.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2014.0050?journalCode=lgbt

 

Here's some examples of things that are disqualifiable, anyone who's flat-footed, can't join. Anyone who has a lot of acne that can't be treated or on certain acne meds can't join. If someone is diabetic, they can't join. If someone who'has been unconscious for 24 hours or longer regardless of the reason, they can't join. For some of the things on the list that are disqualifiable and some people, you can get a medical waiver to allow you to join but it's not easy to get one and it's a lengthy process. If people can't be let in for those things like this then trans definitely shouldn't be just on the mental health side.  



Ka-pi96 said:
Pemalite said:

I think I will end the conversation here, clearly your view is very anti-LGBTQI and thus goes against everything I stand for. I'm sorry I am not willing to treat others differently because of false preconceptions or some kind of desire to dictate what someone can or can't do due to the various reproductive organs that they may/may not posses. Hopefully that changes for you some day.

Didn't you quite literally say non-LGBT people shouldn't talk about LGBT issues and that men shouldn't talk about women's issues? So why are you saying you don't do that when clearly you do?

Exactly.