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Forums - Sales Discussion - Time To Put The PS2 DVD Myth To Rest

thismeintiel on 26 June 2017
konnichiwa said:
thismeintiel said:

 

I decided to make this thread because I have noticed a myth being thrown out there as fact on a few threads.  Mainly those talking about the PS2's sales compared to the PS4's.

The myth goes like this...When the PS2 launched in late 2000 WW, it was around the same price as a cheap DVD player, so many just picked it up to have the benefits of a DVD player, that they might decide to occassionally play games on.  It's mainly used as a way to either explain the PS2's success and/or explain why the PS4 can't match the PS2.  There's one big glaring problem with that.  It's a big, fat lie.  Well, at least an ignorance on the subject.

You see, in late 2000, you could pick up a cheap DVD player for around $150, or half the price of a PS2.  Here's a link to a blog where they were looking for the $99 DVD players announced in a Yahoo News article (sadly this is not archived), but only found ones not discounted.  Searching online, they found GE and Zenith models for ~$149, a Samsung for $160, and Walmart had a GE player for $139.  And during the holidays, especially Black Friday, you could pick up one for $99, or 1/3 the price of a PS2.  The site in the first link got a bunch of replies from their readers and wrote another article about the $99 players being available for Black Friday.

This myth gets even sillier the further you look into the PS2's lifetime.  You see DVD players dropped in price quite quickly.  By 2003, they could be bought for under $50.  Keep in mind that this was less than 1/3 the price of the then $179 PS2.  Here is a Black Friday ad from 2004, that advertises a DVD player for under $18.  That's less than 1/8th the price of the then $149 PS2.  This price thing is also silly, as it does not explain why the Xbox, which was the exact same price as the PS2, wasn't also bought as a cheap DVD player.  Are people really going to try and say that a required $30 DVD kit was all that was stopping consumers from buying the Xbox en masse?

There is something else that disproves the DVD player myth.  SW attach ratios.  It's just like how we can prove the PS3 wasn't bought by millions upon millions of for its Bluray player function.  The PS3's SW attach ratio is basically tied with the 360's, which only used a DVD drive.  If there were so many people who bought it for Bluray, the attach ratio would have been MUCH smaller.  Similarly with PS2, its attach ratio would have been much lower if 25M+ of its sales were mainly for DVD use.  Instead it is right there behind the 360 and PS3, with just one less game bought per console, at 10.5:1.  And it's attach ratio is also very similar to the Xbox's.

So, I think it is time to put this ridiculous myth to rest.  It's obvious the PS2 sold so well because it had 3 things most PS systems have.  Great price.  Great 1st party support.  Great 3rd party support.  It's the same reason the PS4 is doing so well.  Granted, I don't think the PS4 will match the PS2, but 100M+ is pretty much guaranteed.  Thoughts?

No DVD was very important for PS2 success.

Japan went heavy crazy for PS2 one of the biggest reasons was DVD like you can see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4SJKcWbmAI

The PS2 almost shipped 10 million in its first two years in Japan (Took PS3 + 8 years and possible same or a little better for PS4).  With that kind of install base it had devs jumping on it to make games and others to even make promised exclusive games for another system go multiplatform.

the DVD for PS2 is basically the FFVII for PS one in Japan they had same huge effect.

This actually proves my point.  DVD had been out in Japan for 3 years before the PS2's launch.  It hadn't really caught on, just like the video says.  But, when gamers bought a PS2, which was more expensive than DVD players, those gamers decided to give DVD a try.  They eventually started to switch over.  This proves that DVD didn't help the PS2.  The PS2 helped DVD.  If it was the other way around, those DVD stores would have already been up and popular.  And the PS2 would have just made them even more popular. 

The Dreamcast having DVD wouldn't really have helped it, either.  In the end, it would have been the same console.  People were just hyped by the follow up to the highly successful PS1.  And Sony delivered on that hype.

Your point about the PS3 and PS4 really makes no sense.  That has much more to do with the home console market in Japan becoming smaller as gamers switched to HHs and mobile gaming.  Even the popular Wii only pulled off 12.8M there, while PS2 did 23.2M and the PS1 did 19.4M (without DVD.)



 

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The_Yoda on 26 June 2017
thismeintiel said:
The_Yoda said:

We know everyone thinks like you correct? The bolded runs contrary to your argument and the underlined is just your reasoning why you think that happened, you can't possibly claim to know the intenet of 155 million households? Hell we have people in this thread saying they bought it for the DVD player and the gaming was the added feature.  I'm not one that has said it only sold because of the DVD functionality but it seems like you are grasping at straws and some of your assertations seem a bit off base (i.e. black friday pricing that happens one day out of the year and with VERY limited amounts of stock)

That doesn't run contrary at all.  And the underlined is the reason for the vast majority of people who bought the PS2.  Otherwise, the attach ratio wouldn't have been so high.  Instead it almost doubled that of the DS, which sold almost the same amount as the PS2. So, yea, I'll use actual data to prove my points, not anecdotal evidence from a few random people online.

Also, funny how you latch onto someone showing the more top of the line models and their crazy prices, while I actually show proof of the lower end.  The $99 price was in fact Black Friday pricing, which I never claimed it wasn't.  However, those that ranged from $149-$159 were not priced for Black Friday.  It also doesn't change the fact that by 2003, you could get a DVD player for under $50.  Yes, these were lower end models, but guess what, so was the DVD player found in the PS2.  No one who wanted the best quality video was going to get a PS2.  And those looking to get a cheap DVD player would have gotten a $50 one.

So you do claim to know the intent of 155 million households and why they bought their PS2's  that is very impressive indeed.  I worked at Best Buy during that era, I know people that looked at the console as primarily being for DVD's, I remember packages with TVs (same with the PS3)   There will be no reasoning with you however as I can see from many of your replies ("I would contend that absolutely no one bought the PS2 as a DVD player."  anecdotal evidence is all that is needed to disprove a claim that silly) .  Most people bought it as a Console but for some they bought it as a DVD player. Believe what you will. Oh and  black Friday prices are for one day a year and really shouldn't be used unless you are only talking about sales for the day after Thanksgiving. Also some people were happy with a DVD player period, they didn't care about high or low end. 

I'm sure you will have no problem ignoring someone who actually sold this stuff any more than you have an issue ignoring people that told you they or their friends bought them primarily as a DVD player.



onionberry on 26 June 2017

My dad bought a PS2 because it was a DVD player, for me it was a WWE Here's come the pain, Shinobi and much later Persona 4 player.



thismeintiel on 26 June 2017
Dulfite said:
I've never heard of this. I have heard of a lot of people buying P3 because it was cheaper than a blue ray player when it launched.

See, this at least makes sense.  When the PS3 launched, it actually was among the cheapest Bluray players out there.  You couldn't find a Bluray player for half the price of the PS3, like you could do for a DVD player when the PS2 launched.  Of course, that also didn't last long and Bluray players dropped pretty quickly.  The attach rate being almost exactly the same as the 360 also proves that while it did happen, it was the extreme minority who bought it just for Bluray.

konnichiwa said:
thismeintiel said:

@ bold

Nope.  You need to look that up, again.  PS2 launch price $299.  Xbox launch price $299.  PS2 price when Xbox launched...$299.  They both cost the exact same.  And they both got cuts to $199, $179, and $149 at the same time, too.  So, price had nothing to do with it. And the adaptor was only $30 and came with a remote.  A mere $30 dollars does not explain the HUGE difference between the two.

1 year headstart?  When has that made a difference?  That didn't help the Genesis, which actually got a 2 year head start, beat the SNES.  It didn't help the 3DO, Jaguar, or Saturn (more like 1/2 a year) beat the PS1, or even the N64.  It didn't help the Dreamcast beat the PS2, or even GC/Xbox.  It didn't help the 360 beat the Wii, or even PS3.  And it definitely didn't help the Wii U beat the PS4, or even XBO.  1 year means nothing if you stop constantly delivering after that year.

ugh, I think you are starting to lose people now. The headstart of the Genesis certainly helped it, it even became the most selling console in Europe. Big gains compared to what the Master System did. That's why they always tried to release their console first. Saturn did a good fight the first year but it has to many issues. Dreamcast headstart kept it atleast alive for some time, if it released with PS2 around the same time it would have game over in months. Kind of amazed that you say the x360 headstart did not help its sales, it certainly did had an efffect especially if you compare it with the xbox that had not a headstart.

No comment about the first part?  Ok.

Did I say it didn't help it?  No.  I said it didn't help it beat X console.  And it didn't.  The headstart really means little in the long run.  Just look at the 3DO, Jaguar, Saturn, Dreamcast, and Wii U for prime examples.

You get a few extra million in sales, maybe, but it's what you do after that that determines where you end up.  If you don't have a competitive price, appealing HW, great 1st party support, and great 3rd party support, you won't get very far.  It's how a newcomer to the industry took down 2 giants of that industry.



 

thismeintiel on 26 June 2017
The_Yoda said:
thismeintiel said:

That doesn't run contrary at all.  And the underlined is the reason for the vast majority of people who bought the PS2.  Otherwise, the attach ratio wouldn't have been so high.  Instead it almost doubled that of the DS, which sold almost the same amount as the PS2. So, yea, I'll use actual data to prove my points, not anecdotal evidence from a few random people online.

Also, funny how you latch onto someone showing the more top of the line models and their crazy prices, while I actually show proof of the lower end.  The $99 price was in fact Black Friday pricing, which I never claimed it wasn't.  However, those that ranged from $149-$159 were not priced for Black Friday.  It also doesn't change the fact that by 2003, you could get a DVD player for under $50.  Yes, these were lower end models, but guess what, so was the DVD player found in the PS2.  No one who wanted the best quality video was going to get a PS2.  And those looking to get a cheap DVD player would have gotten a $50 one.

So you do claim to know the intent of 155 million households and why they bought their PS2's  that is very impressive indeed.  I worked at Best Buy during that era, I know people that looked at the console as primarily being for DVD's, I remember packages with TVs (same with the PS3)   There will be no reasoning with you however as I can see from many of your replies ("I would contend that absolutely no one bought the PS2 as a DVD player."  anecdotal evidence is all that is needed to disprove a claim that silly) .  Most people bought it as a Console but for some they bought it as a DVD player. Believe what you will. Oh and  black Friday prices are for one day a year and really shouldn't be used unless you are only talking about sales for the day after Thanksgiving. Also some people were happy with a DVD player period, they didn't care about high or low end. 

I'm sure you will have no problem ignoring someone who actually sold this stuff any more than you have an issue ignoring people that told you they or their friends bought them primarily as a DVD player.

Still stuck on that Black Friday thing, huh? Even though I pointed out that the ones ~$149 weren't for Black Friday, so still half the price of the PS2?  And within 3 years you could pick one up for $49?  I also guess you didn't read the post prior where I took apart that user's post you seemed to latch onto with all the "big" DVD player prices?  You may want to. 

And yea, some people don't care too much about the quality of the DVD player.  That's why they get a cheap one, i.e. not the one that costs 2x-3x as much.  Or 6x-8x as much a few years later.  Anyway, I can see how this convo will continue to go, so I will end it here.



 

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LipeJJ on 26 June 2017

I don't know about US, but in Brazil I remember many families had one mainly to be a DVD player (and playing some Winning Eleven )



Bet with Teeqoz for 2 weeks of avatar and sig control that Super Mario Odyssey would ship more than 7m on its first 2 months. The game shipped 9.07m, so I won

NightDragon83 on 26 June 2017

There's no myth... DVD Playback was arguably the biggest selling point for the PS2 for its first year on the market. While it's true that some bargain DVD players could be had around the 2000 holiday season for $100 or less, most brand-name DVD players retailed for $150-$250 and up for most of the year.. our Toshiba DVD player which we had gotten in the spring that year retailed for $249.99 for example after it had just recently gotten a $50 price drop from original $299 MSRP.

The fact that you were getting a top notch DVD player included with your brand new state of the art game console in the fall of 2000 was HUGE for consumers, and movies like The Matrix, Star Wars Episode I, X-Men, How the Grinch Stole Christmas, and re-releases of classics like Terminator 2 and Independence Day helped push PS2 sales even further as the DVD format became mainstream.

The PS2 launch lineup wasn't exactly stellar, with the biggest seller being the yearly installment of Madden NFL. The first batch of true killer apps for the PS2 didn't arrive until the 2nd half of 2001 like GT3 A-Spec, Final Fantasy X, MGS2 and the biggest hit of the year GTA III.  So yes, the PS2 owes a great deal of its early success to DVD.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

pastro243 on 26 June 2017

DVD added value and thus helped sales, what's stupid is claiming PS2 was only meant as a DVD player like some have suggested before in these forums. Software sales are enormous for ps2 and it would have won by a very big margin nonetheless



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thismeintiel on 26 June 2017
NightDragon83 said:

There's no myth... DVD Playback was arguably the biggest selling point for the PS2 for its first year on the market. While it's true that some bargain DVD players could be had around the 2000 holiday season for $100 or less, most brand-name DVD players retailed for $150-$250 and up for most of the year.. our Toshiba DVD player which we had gotten in the spring that year retailed for $249.99 for example after it had just recently gotten a $50 price drop from original $299 MSRP.

The fact that you were getting a top notch DVD player included with your brand new state of the art game console in the fall of 2000 was HUGE for consumers, and movies like The Matrix, Star Wars Episode I, X-Men, How the Grinch Stole Christmas, and re-releases of classics like Terminator 2 and Independence Day helped push PS2 sales even further as the DVD format became mainstream.

The PS2 launch lineup wasn't exactly stellar, with the biggest seller being the yearly installment of Madden NFL. The first batch of true killer apps for the PS2 didn't arrive until the 2nd half of 2001 like GT3 A-Spec, Final Fantasy X, MGS2 and the biggest hit of the year GTA III.  So yes, the PS2 owes a great deal of its early success to DVD.

$150 was still half the price of a PS2. And that kept growing in DVD players favor as the prices dropped quicker than the PS2.

And top notch is definitely a stretch.  The PS2's DVD player at the start of the gen was adequate at best.  It didn't even support progressive scan and some video formats. 

The PS2 had a great launch lineup.  Probably one of the better ones to date.  Here's a list:

U.S. launch: October 26, 2000

There's something there for everyone.  Plus, after the success that was the PS1, gamers knew what to expect from the PS brand.  Great 1st party and 3rd party support was going to be a continuing thing.



 

The_Yoda on 26 June 2017
thismeintiel said:
The_Yoda said:

So you do claim to know the intent of 155 million households and why they bought their PS2's  that is very impressive indeed.  I worked at Best Buy during that era, I know people that looked at the console as primarily being for DVD's, I remember packages with TVs (same with the PS3)   There will be no reasoning with you however as I can see from many of your replies ("I would contend that absolutely no one bought the PS2 as a DVD player."  anecdotal evidence is all that is needed to disprove a claim that silly) .  Most people bought it as a Console but for some they bought it as a DVD player. Believe what you will. Oh and  black Friday prices are for one day a year and really shouldn't be used unless you are only talking about sales for the day after Thanksgiving. Also some people were happy with a DVD player period, they didn't care about high or low end. 

I'm sure you will have no problem ignoring someone who actually sold this stuff any more than you have an issue ignoring people that told you they or their friends bought them primarily as a DVD player.

Still stuck on that Black Friday thing, huh? Even though I pointed out that the ones ~$149 weren't for Black Friday, so still half the price of the PS2?  And within 3 years you could pick one up for $49?  I also guess you didn't read the post prior where I took apart that user's post you seemed to latch onto with all the "big" DVD player prices?  You may want to. 

And yea, some people don't care too much about the quality of the DVD player.  That's why they get a cheap one, i.e. not the one that costs 2x-3x as much.  Or 6x-8x as much a few years later.  Anyway, I can see how this convo will continue to go, so I will end it here.

LOL I can see why you would like to end the conversation since you can't touch the thing I'm saying for the third time "So you do claim to know the intent of 155 million households and why they bought their PS2's " you know the opening line to my second post to you since you ignored it in the first reply too.

I am a little stuck on the balck friday thing, those are limited time limited quanty deals.  Sorry but using black friday pricing was a weak leg. When DVD players first came out the pricing was retarded.