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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - DF Justifying the X1X Price Point

Are consoles actually ever "overpriced"? They might cost a lot but consoles are always sold at near cost to build or a bit over, enough to make some profit.



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Ali_16x said:
Are consoles actually ever "overpriced"? They might cost a lot but consoles are always sold at near cost to build or a bit over, enough to make some profit.

I still find funny people that call Sony greed on releasing PS3 at 500USD for 20Gb and 600USD for 60Gb. Worse yet is that they knew Sony was losing 200USD per console sold... how can they be greed on losing money?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

JRPGfan said:
jason1637 said:

If AMDs new tech is available by 2019 and is very expensive I see the new generation for Sony starting 2020 with a $500 maybe even $600 if they want to take a big loss or not.

2020.

By then 7nm will be out, and they ll be able to make a 10-12TF system for 399$.

4k60 will be the standard by then.

Sadly. The 7nm tech is probably going to really be 14nm tech.

CGI-Quality said:

Which begs the question - if you, like me, game on a more powerful device than the X, why buy it? Is it because of Friends? LIVE? 

Not that I'm knockin' the purcharse - I, too, am buying one. I'm just curious about need, because you already own a device that will play the exact same games.

For me it's about convenience. Playing a game on the PC in the man-cave, then calling it quits, going inside and sitting on the couch and firing up that same game with that same save.... Is awesome.

Hiku said:
I don't think anyone is questioning whether you get what you pay for.
Just that $500 is more than they want to spend on a console.

The simple solution to that is. Just don't buy it.
Buy the Xbox One S which will continue to be the cheaper alternative, run the same games, still play back 4k blu-rays.

shikamaru317 said:

Yeah, I agree. 10-12 tflops Ryzen APU's should be possible for $400 by 2020.

Why do people keep hoping for Ryzen in 2020? Think about it. - It will be old and outdated by then.

Ryzen isn't happening for next gen.

FallingTitan said:
i can't wait for the xbox x!!!! my r9 390 gets so dam hot it heats up my whole room.

That is the law of thermodynamics. The heat has to go somewhere.

If you think Scorpio will be any different. Think again. With it's vapour chamber cooler, it will be extremely efficient at removing heat from the console and dumping it into your room.

FallingTitan said:

and sometimes i get sick of glitchs where the pc doesn't pick up my x1 controller. Im starting to not care about graphics and just want a console experience FROM NOW ON. that and more multiplayer fun on consoles it seems like less play on pc?

Not entirely sure what you are trying to convey here.


FallingTitan said:

so is the xbox x expensive? HELL NO. its cheaper then an IPAD which does much less and i'd spend 10000x less time on an ipad over its entire life time vs the xbox and its entire lifetime.

The iPad is overpriced for the hardware you get. You pay a premium for that Apple sticker.
So not exactly a legitimate argument on your behalf.


haxxiy said:

10-12 TF is indeed very feasible for the power envelope of a console on 7 nm. However, I'm slightly concerned with profitability at $399 since the cost per mm2 on a chip is increasing with every die shrink. A 300 mm2 chip on 7 nm might cost as much as a 400 mm2 chip on 14 nm, and Zen-like cores are huge, about 11 mm2 on 14 nm versus ~3 mm2 for the Jaguars on the same node.

Of course, I'm sure the folks at Sony and AMD are very aware of that and might be coming up with smart solutions that doesn't involve scaling down their next generation console way too close to the XOX and even the PS4 Pro for comfort. Maybe even two smaller separate dies on the same lid - say, a 100 mm2 CPU and a 200 mm2 GPU - is going to be cheaper than a single 300 mm2 design. AMD already has a similar technology on Infinity Fabric to make it work like a single die.


Newer process nodes are *always* more expensive than older ones. It is why sometimes chip manufacturers will stick with the old node for a little longer.

Once the newer process reaches a point in it's maturity, then it tends to supplant the older process.

freedquaker said:

there is a noticeable gap (especially due to the RAM bandwidth, not only the GPU grunt) but third parties usually opted for the lowest common denominator

We need more information. But it is possible the Xbox One S in a worst case scenario could have bandwidth roughly equivalent to the Playstation 4 Pro.

freedquaker said:


Please MARK MY WORDS, guys. XBX will fail, unless they cut the prices to at least to PS4pro levels (then the Status Quo will continue).

People have been saying that for the past 15+ years. So please bear with me as I roll my eyes.

JRPGfan said:

4 Cores, 8 Threads = 44mm2

Its gonna be less than that at 7nm.

Don't forget the amount of metal layers.


Plerpy_ said:
I don't doubt it's worth it specs wise, but at $649 AUD it's just too expensive. And without a killer app I can't help but ask what the point of it is (so essentially what my questions about the Pro were).

At least with the Pro at the moment you can get the console, three games and remote control for $539.

Convert our currency to USD. We are actually paying slightly less than the Yanks.

thismeintiel said:

I do think it will come standard with a 1TB HDD.  And 16GB of GDDR6 or HBM2/3 will be used for the RAM, whichever is cheaper. 

GDDR6 will certainly have the price advantage.
Micron elaborated on it's plans for that technology too.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11543/micron-discusses-gddr5x-gddr6-and-gddr5

DonFerrari said:
Ali_16x said:
Are consoles actually ever "overpriced"? They might cost a lot but consoles are always sold at near cost to build or a bit over, enough to make some profit.

I still find funny people that call Sony greed on releasing PS3 at 500USD for 20Gb and 600USD for 60Gb. Worse yet is that they knew Sony was losing 200USD per console sold... how can they be greed on losing money?

I think in Sony's case many people didn't like Sony's attitude at that time with the whole "Work harder to afford to buy one" mentality.

https://www.engadget.com/2005/07/06/sony-wants-you-to-earn-that-playstation-3/









--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
JRPGfan said:

2020.

By then 7nm will be out, and they ll be able to make a 10-12TF system for 399$.

4k60 will be the standard by then.

Sadly. The 7nm tech is probably going to really be 14nm tech.

CGI-Quality said:

Which begs the question - if you, like me, game on a more powerful device than the X, why buy it? Is it because of Friends? LIVE? 

Not that I'm knockin' the purcharse - I, too, am buying one. I'm just curious about need, because you already own a device that will play the exact same games.

For me it's about convenience. Playing a game on the PC in the man-cave, then calling it quits, going inside and sitting on the couch and firing up that same game with that same save.... Is awesome.

Hiku said:
I don't think anyone is questioning whether you get what you pay for.
Just that $500 is more than they want to spend on a console.

The simple solution to that is. Just don't buy it.
Buy the Xbox One S which will continue to be the cheaper alternative, run the same games, still play back 4k blu-rays.

shikamaru317 said:

Yeah, I agree. 10-12 tflops Ryzen APU's should be possible for $400 by 2020.

Why do people keep hoping for Ryzen in 2020? Think about it. - It will be old and outdated by then.

Ryzen isn't happening for next gen.

FallingTitan said:
i can't wait for the xbox x!!!! my r9 390 gets so dam hot it heats up my whole room.

That is the law of thermodynamics. The heat has to go somewhere.

If you think Scorpio will be any different. Think again. With it's vapour chamber cooler, it will be extremely efficient at removing heat from the console and dumping it into your room.

FallingTitan said:

and sometimes i get sick of glitchs where the pc doesn't pick up my x1 controller. Im starting to not care about graphics and just want a console experience FROM NOW ON. that and more multiplayer fun on consoles it seems like less play on pc?

Not entirely sure what you are trying to convey here.


FallingTitan said:

so is the xbox x expensive? HELL NO. its cheaper then an IPAD which does much less and i'd spend 10000x less time on an ipad over its entire life time vs the xbox and its entire lifetime.

The iPad is overpriced for the hardware you get. You pay a premium for that Apple sticker.
So not exactly a legitimate argument on your behalf.


haxxiy said:

10-12 TF is indeed very feasible for the power envelope of a console on 7 nm. However, I'm slightly concerned with profitability at $399 since the cost per mm2 on a chip is increasing with every die shrink. A 300 mm2 chip on 7 nm might cost as much as a 400 mm2 chip on 14 nm, and Zen-like cores are huge, about 11 mm2 on 14 nm versus ~3 mm2 for the Jaguars on the same node.

Of course, I'm sure the folks at Sony and AMD are very aware of that and might be coming up with smart solutions that doesn't involve scaling down their next generation console way too close to the XOX and even the PS4 Pro for comfort. Maybe even two smaller separate dies on the same lid - say, a 100 mm2 CPU and a 200 mm2 GPU - is going to be cheaper than a single 300 mm2 design. AMD already has a similar technology on Infinity Fabric to make it work like a single die.


Newer process nodes are *always* more expensive than older ones. It is why sometimes chip manufacturers will stick with the old node for a little longer.

Once the newer process reaches a point in it's maturity, then it tends to supplant the older process.

freedquaker said:

there is a noticeable gap (especially due to the RAM bandwidth, not only the GPU grunt) but third parties usually opted for the lowest common denominator

We need more information. But it is possible the Xbox One S in a worst case scenario could have bandwidth roughly equivalent to the Playstation 4 Pro.

freedquaker said:


Please MARK MY WORDS, guys. XBX will fail, unless they cut the prices to at least to PS4pro levels (then the Status Quo will continue).

People have been saying that for the past 15+ years. So please bear with me as I roll my eyes.

JRPGfan said:

4 Cores, 8 Threads = 44mm2

Its gonna be less than that at 7nm.

Don't forget the amount of metal layers.


Plerpy_ said:
I don't doubt it's worth it specs wise, but at $649 AUD it's just too expensive. And without a killer app I can't help but ask what the point of it is (so essentially what my questions about the Pro were).

At least with the Pro at the moment you can get the console, three games and remote control for $539.

Convert our currency to USD. We are actually paying slightly less than the Yanks.

thismeintiel said:

I do think it will come standard with a 1TB HDD.  And 16GB of GDDR6 or HBM2/3 will be used for the RAM, whichever is cheaper. 

GDDR6 will certainly have the price advantage.
Micron elaborated on it's plans for that technology too.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11543/micron-discusses-gddr5x-gddr6-and-gddr5

DonFerrari said:

I still find funny people that call Sony greed on releasing PS3 at 500USD for 20Gb and 600USD for 60Gb. Worse yet is that they knew Sony was losing 200USD per console sold... how can they be greed on losing money?

I think in Sony's case many people didn't like Sony's attitude at that time with the whole "Work harder to afford to buy one" mentality.

https://www.engadget.com/2005/07/06/sony-wants-you-to-earn-that-playstation-3/







The work more complaint is valid, but you know that there were greedy complaints as well.

And just may have read wrong, but how does X1S have on its worst case scenario a bandwidth that is equal to PS4Pro, have the X1S changed all its memory structure or you were talking about X1X?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

NobleTeam360 said:
I could have sworn MS said the Xbox One X was basically for the gaming enthusiast. So I feel like a lot of the comments in this thread are quite redundant/pointless.

But, but I'm a gaming enthusiast



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Good luck to MS. I just got my PS4 pro this weekend actually. It's been a pain getting everything moved over though. Then I forgot I had a 2TB drive in my old PS4 so now I have to see about moving that over as well. I just want to play games damn it.

 

Not to mention my data is going to skyrocket trying to get all my games downloaded again. I'm going to have to get what I want to play now and slowly get the rest.



VGPolyglot said:
NobleTeam360 said:
I could have sworn MS said the Xbox One X was basically for the gaming enthusiast. So I feel like a lot of the comments in this thread are quite redundant/pointless.

But, but I'm a gaming enthusiat

But are you the sort to drop ridiculous amounts of money on a better picture and graphical fidelity? Do you own a 4K tv? Because that's who this console is for.

I don't care too much about resolution, so the entry level Xbox One is just fine for me. And anyone else who doesn't feel like dropping $500 for tech they don't care about...there is another Xbox for them with the exact same games.

As far as I'm concerned, if a company is going to release improved hardware mid-gen, this is how they oughta do it: go big and forget about the mass market, because they already have a console for them. If you release a new system specifically for the graphically obsessed, what's the point in limiting the hardware inside to appeal the mass market when you already have a console that does that?



JRPGfan said:


Also kinda crazy to think Nintendo charges like 9 times as much as PS4/XB1 do for performance on their system.

By doing a simple teraflops/price math you're ignoring all aspects of the devices. It's a rough approximation of a rough approximation. The Switch is a mobile device, so it has a different thermal/power consumption requirement. It also packs a LCD touch screen and other components that add to the cost.

I could use the same math to say how worse the performace/price ratio of a Galaxy S8 is when compared to a GTX 1070. It doesn't make a lot of sense.



Pemalite said:
thismeintiel said:

I do think it will come standard with a 1TB HDD.  And 16GB of GDDR6 or HBM2/3 will be used for the RAM, whichever is cheaper. 

GDDR6 will certainly have the price advantage.
Micron elaborated on it's plans for that technology too.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11543/micron-discusses-gddr5x-gddr6-and-gddr5

Then, GDDR6 it is.  And they are aiming for twice the speed of GDDR5, so that should get the job done.



Zkuq said:

I don't think there's a lot of people complaining about value. I think people are complaining about the price. You can have both excellent value and an expensive price at the same time. $499 is expensive for a console, no matter what it has to offer. In this case, you just happen to get pretty good value for your money if you're willing to pay that much.

This.