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Forums - General Discussion - Dragonball > Dragonball Z and Dragonball Super

Turkish said:

If u like DB then you will like GT, it feels the same

I like DB/Z/GT

Only downside to Z is the pacing, 10 episode for training, 20 episode for a fight etc


Havent seen Supa yet, waiting on its finish.

I gave so many issues with GT, but I feel like everyone understands the problems there. I don't think it feels the same, though it strives for something similar.



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Hiku said:

I agree with most of what you said.

What I liked about the Dragonball manga was mostly the adventure aspect, and how battles had much more focus on abilities. The Budokai Tournaments were especially interesting because of this. Nothing about the Cell Games version was interesting in this regard. Nor the fights we got in the tournament setting during the Buu arc.

I will say that the first tournament in Super seemed to try to correct this to some extent, as most of the fights we saw, aside from Cabbe vs Vegeta, required some additional strategy, or involved an ability/weapon. But I don't think it was executed in an interesting way. Goku throwing out Winnie the Pooh just wasn't choreographed well. And the urgency of Vegeta having to concern himself with spacing during his match was overshadowed by the fact that we know he could have just turned SS Blue and finished the fight in a second. Yeah I know he was saving his power for Hit, but Super has been contradicting itself on whether or not transforming into Blue for a moment exerts more power than staying in regular SSJ form for a long time. (The last few manga chapters seem to suggest the opposite, and has Vegeta turn into Blue for split seconds here and there when fighting Black.)

spemanig said:

Hit does too, but no clever thinking was used in that fight. Just a power boost

Yes and no. The beginning part of their fight did, where Goku predicted his movements to counter his time leap. The problem is, they didn't explain or show how exactly. Was Hit punching towards an area that Goku had already begun to guard as he stopped time? Or was it that he released his hold on time early enough to allow Goku's movement to reach the desired area he wanted to guard? If so, why didn't Hit simply pause time later than normal, and release only right before his attack was about to make contact with Goku's body? This is why I wanted them to show us exactly what was going on, but they didn't.

That said, I still thoroughly enjoyed the Kaiouken x10 intruduction to this fight. Because I can also appreciate some power level aspects of some fights. And in this case it was backed up by beautiful artwork, (as much as I dislike the look of the SS Blue form, when it has the red aura around it, it looks really good. And especially when he went x10 and it causes a red film overlay on top of everything, changing the color of his hair to appear white), Masako Nozawa was really on point with the voice acting for that scene (with the scream and then Goku sounding very cocky, similar to Goku Black), and I liked how they included an insert theme (the opening intro) to the battle. Up until he fired the Kamehameha, I really enjoyed it. But as the fight dragged on to the next episode, not so much.

I felt that the tournament had more potential, but was excecuted poorly.
As we moved on towards the Trunks arc, we got to see much better choreographed fights, higher artwork and animation quality overall for key scenes, a darker atmosphere, and characters like Mai and Bulma got to be involved more directly, although I don't buy how Mai and her army were able to hold back or escape from Black some times. But I apreciated the thought behind it. It was also nice to see the comeback of the ability Mafuuba, even though the risk vs reward factor had been changed.

From the indications I've seen here and there, I am getting my hopes up for this upcoming tournament a bit. I think they're trying to adhere to what made the original Dragonball good by incorporating it more and more into Super. One thing that immediately struck me as interesting is the rule that flying is disabled for the tournament. I've also felt for a long time that the flying aspect usually does more harm to the choreography of battles than good. So having everyone fight grounded in the tournament will be very interesting, and will probably put some of the weaker characters on more equal footing to the rest.
I expect that rule to be abolished after a certain amount of time has passed though. But I like the idea.

My thing with the Hit fight is that nothing can really be done with an ability like that when it comes to choreography outside of the obvious. So Hit can time leap. How does Goku trump that? By being faster/being predictive. The end. Nothing else can be done there. Does Goku have to do anything innovative to achieve that? No, because the characters are too powerful for anything clever choreography wise to make sense.

It's why I couldn't get into the Zamasu fights. When I say "it's just skyboxing and ki blasts," the point is that boxing in the air doesn't present anything interesting to look at choreography wise. The reason punches and kicks on the ground are interesting is because the fighters are limited to maneuvers that are physically possible, only being embellished by what's not. Like you can watch the Goku v Krillin fight in DB, and actually teach two stuntmen most of the choreography and it would still be impressive. That doesn't exist in sky battles. Fighter's don't need to shift their weight to gain leverage and give a kick more power, or move in a smooth way, controlling there center of gravity, remaining fluid in motion, etc because none of that exists in the air. They don't even have to obey loose rules of aerodynamics, which would at least create a little bit of tension. The coolest thing that can be done is knocking people through buildings. 

I hope the no-fly rule makes the fights more interesting, but that's just the biggest problem, not the only one. Characters still move at teleportation speeds. I also don't want to make it sound like there are no exceptions to these issues in Zuper, or like Dragonball is perfect in this regard. Oolong became irrelevant in Dragonball, not Z. Chiaouzu has the most interesting powers, but was useless in Dragonball. Even Bulma started petering off in later Dragonball. I also don't really mind the Saiyan Arc, even though it's the perfect example of the "barren wasteland" thing. It feels more like a not so great Dragonball arc than an offensively bad DBZ arc.

Also, I don't watch DB for the fights. The reason I focus on them here is because I hate the general understanding that Zuper handles action better than Dragonball. The story is a much bigger issue to me. At least I can see the appeal of Zuper fights. I like powerful dudes hitting each other too, even without the finess of cleverness. Gohan going SSJ2 and completeing his arc hyped me up too. I'm not souless. But the Saiyan dick riding the show did ever since it was introduced then, and how that's connected to literally every issue I have with the series now, is what really gets to me.



Dragon Ball is the best by far. Z started off strong but it fades as it goes along. The Buu arc was terrible. I hate GT. The first two arcs of Super are extended rehashes of Battle of the Gods and Resurrection F'. Super doesn't really start until the third arc.



Hiku said:
spemanig said:

My thing with the Hit fight is that nothing can really be done with an ability like that when it comes to choreography outside of the obvious. So Hit can time leap. How does Goku trump that? By being faster/being predictive. The end. Nothing else can be done there. Does Goku have to do anything innovative to achieve that? No, because the characters are too powerful for anything clever choreography wise to make sense.

It's why I couldn't get into the Zamasu fights. When I say "it's just skyboxing and ki blasts," the point is that boxing in the air doesn't present anything interesting to look at choreography wise. The reason punches and kicks on the ground are interesting is because the fighters are limited to maneuvers that are physically possible, only being embellished by what's not. Like you can watch the Goku v Krillin fight in DB, and actually teach two stuntmen most of the choreography and it would still be impressive. That doesn't exist in sky battles. Fighter's don't need to shift their weight to gain leverage and give a kick more power, or move in a smooth way, controlling there center of gravity, remaining fluid in motion, etc because none of that exists in the air. They don't even have to obey loose rules of aerodynamics, which would at least create a little bit of tension. The coolest thing that can be done is knocking people through buildings. 

I hope the no-fly rule makes the fights more interesting, but that's just the biggest problem, not the only one. Characters still move at teleportation speeds. I also don't want to make it sound like there are no exceptions to these issues in Zuper, or like Dragonball is perfect in this regard. Oolong became irrelevant in Dragonball, not Z. Chiaouzu has the most interesting powers, but was useless in Dragonball. Even Bulma started petering off in later Dragonball. I also don't really mind the Saiyan Arc, even though it's the perfect example of the "barren wasteland" thing. It feels more like a not so great Dragonball arc than an offensively bad DBZ arc.

Also, I don't watch DB for the fights. The reason I focus on them here is because I hate the general understanding that Zuper handles action better than Dragonball. The story is a much bigger issue to me. At least I can see the appeal of Zuper fights. I like powerful dudes hitting each other too, even without the finess of cleverness. Gohan going SSJ2 and completeing his arc hyped me up too. I'm not souless. But the Saiyan dick riding the show did ever since it was introduced then, and how that's connected to literally every issue I have with the series now, is what really gets to me.

I think more could have been done with Hit's ability. If we could have seen exactly what happened, they could have also shown how Hit could adapt to Goku's adaption to it, outside of just increasing the duration of his time leap. But Goku only said that it's "more difficult than it sounds" to adjust your tendencies like that, and they left it at that. We could have seen things like fenints from Goku that lead into counter hits instead of blocks, or a Jiu jitsu style approach where Goku uses the kinetic force of Hit's movements against him. They could have also introduced a drawback to Hit's ability, such as if he activates a time leap during one of his movements, the movement will be carried out during the time leap, and he has no ability to change its trajectory until he releases time. Etc.

As for skyboxing, I do think they can hold some merit over grounded battles, but I find this to usually not be taken advantage of in 1 v 1 fights.
During the 4-way Goku & Trunks vs Zamasu & Black fight, I liked the dynamic it brought to position shifting and angles for one particular scene.
Here's a rare 1v 1 example where I did enjoy that aspect of aerial combat:



During grounded combat you're a bit more limited to the use of dynamic camera angles, and in this case I thought it was aesthetically pleasing to watch them make use of clouds and a dynamic camera to hide their presence, and how their auras traced their movement.

But I feel that I prefer combat limited to the ground in almost every instance, with few exceptions.
So I hope they get this upcoming tournament right. It was also nice to see a few scenes taking place in other universes, to show what those characters are fighting for, and make their world feel a bit more alive by showing us the people in it. But it's still a far cry from the development supporting characters got in the original Dragonball.

I got into Dragonball for many reasons, and fights were one of them. Probably the biggest one, as I started with the DBZ anime (in Chinese), and then picked up the manga and read it from the start.

My thing isn't necessarily that I want only ground combat, but that I want clear limitations to aerial combat so that they are more interesting. I get the camera angles thing, and I agree that there's a flashy coolness factor, but to me there's little awe because it's already so outside of the realm of possibility that they can do anything they want without restraint, meaning there's no use doing anything but what I've mentioned. The reason I like grounded characters is because it makes their aerial feats more amazing.

Goku gaining altitude with the power pole is cool specifically because he can't fly, so it's a clever use of the tools he does have to gain a competitive advantage/evening the playing field with his opponent. Same with the Nimbus. Maybe he can fly, but he can be knocked off of it, it can be destroyed, his movement is limited, etc. so Goku has to think more about what he's doing on even a basic level. In his fight with Roshi, he used his tail as a helicopter to hover in the air slowly. Against Picollo Jr, he Ki blasts with his feet. Against King P, he ki blasts the ground with his only working hand after his other limbs were taken out. Krillin inflated his body once to float to the ground more slowly.

And I'm sure there are plenty of other elements they could have used to keep aerial combat in without making every character fly. Imagine the Zamasu v Goku/Vegeta/Trunks fight, only the latter three couldn't fly, and used other techniques to suppliment. Maybe they adept at climbing/running up buildings, so they use that. Maybe they've become better at using ki blasts with their feet, so they use them in small bursts to sky jump. Maybe Vegeta never lost his tail and can hover/transform into Ozaru and change the dynamic that way. Maybe Trunks uses the Nimbus here. Already the fight becomes more interesting while still being aerial.

I'll always be open minded, but I truly feel like much of it is irreversable at this point.



DBZ is sort of like the anime that non anime fans cant get enough of.

To many it was the first real anime they got into and watched excessively.



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LadyJasmine said:
DBZ is sort of like the anime that non anime fans cant get enough of.

To many it was the first real anime they got into and watched excessively.

I mean, I guess I agree, but I don't think that having wide appeal is a bad thing.



I need to watch more of it, but it really does seem as if the original Dragonball show was a nice story, somewhat of a spin on the Journey to the West, about a kid growing up and trying to find his way in the world, with a bunch of wacky adventures along the way. In DBZ, they seem to have decided to make Goku Superman, or worse, because Superman doesn't just keep finding new power levels to become more godlike. And the show becomes one massive world-ending threat after another. Plus just tons and TONS of filler, plotlines that are dragged out way too far, many of the fun and interesting characters from the original show being shoved into the background, etc.

DBZ is a decent, classic show to many people. I just think comparing it to the original show, it really kinda flew off the rails.



I definitely agree.

I watched DBZ first as well, absolutely loved the series (minus Buu Saga) and still enjoy watching it today.

But after seeing DragonBall, I preferred it overall.

Ki attacks begin to lose all meaning in DBZ, with goku throwing off kamehameha's left, right and centre, all with little consequence. In DB a single kamehameha was a really big deal. The training was intense, the execution took time and the effect was devastating.

Plus there were more animal-people which were fun.



I'm picking up what you're putting down though don't put Z and Super together that is insulting as Z is my favourite then DB and I can't decide between Super and GT right now. Z is my favourite for the simple reason I love passion and intensity also the music makes it so much better. I like techniques as much as the next guy but the drama the build up the energy pumps me up so much, Vegetas Final Flash against Cell scene is so good and gives me chills till this day and many more DBZ moments but in Dragonball almost non of the scenes give me the same level chills don't get me wrong I fucking love dragonball the fight choreography is so damn good but there is a reason they stuck with piccolo for 2 sagas and that is because people loved that intensity there was so much at stake. Anyway get onto Hunter x Hunter if you want technique and adventure it's pretty much the more grown up version of dragonball plus the intensity.

Also people dislike the Buu saga yet it has the most techniques over all of Z and introduce wacky characters and mystery as well as fusion. Buu is not the best villain but the saga is good when you really think about it.



I don't know... I don't make a distinction between DB and DBZ.

I read the manga before watching the anime. Which was filled with... fillers and stuff that weren't from Toriyama...

To me, it [the manga] felt like one cohesive narrative.