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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why Are Feminists Evil?

Modern (Western) feminism is less about equality and more about getting one over on men.

This is the reason it has become such a hated movement. Genuine issues around the world are ignored in favour of trivial non-issues.



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Louie said:
I don't think feminists are inherently evil (and I've never heard that expression from the OP). What I highly dislike, though, is when radical feminists twist statistics to suit their purpose or simply make up false claims which then get repeated by the (in most cases well-intentioned) mass media for everyone to see.

I criticise stuff like this:

(1)- The Gender Wage Gap, which is a myth (men and women earn the same money for the same work - the statistics cited are simply the average earning of all male and female incomes and don't adjust for different career choices or hours worked - and there *are* statistics that adjust for this, they just don't get cited!)
(2)- Domestic violence as a "Gender problem" (50% of all victims of domestic violence are male and 50% of the abusers are female... and everyone knows this!)
- "Inequality" as defined by the Human Development Index (take average Life Expectancy: The HDI defines "Equality" as women having a 5 year longer life-span! If country X has an average life expectancy of women that is only 4 years higher than men's that counts as inequality. It's insane.)
- "Underrepresentation" of women in political parties and parliaments (in Europe, women are actually overrepresented here. Why? Women show much less interest in politics in general. In Germany, 40% of males but only 20% of females are "highly interested" in politics, but 36% of MP's are women. Women don't care as much for politics - so what? That's neither good nor bad. It's simply a fact.)
(3)- "There are no gender differences other than genitalia" (which is a total lie. Newborn babies already show gender differences in behaviour: girls look at faces a lot longer than boys and boys look longer at inanimate objects. Nine month old toddlers show a strong preference for "gendered" toys - boys like cars, girls like dolls. That's not nurture, that's nature.)

(4)What I would like to see is equal representation of men's and women's hardships in media and politics. What about those 75% of homeless people who are male? 9 of 10 workplace deaths are men. Men's average life expectancy is 5 years below women's. Men are more likely to die of cancer and 75% of all suicides are men. The 15 most dangerous jobs in society are mostly male (80%+). Victims of domestic violence are 50% male.
Why can't we talk about these numbers as much as we do about "the glass ceiling"? Real equality is when men and women are equally heard and equally taken care of. And that is just not the case right now.

Oh and if someone is actually interested in the stuff I said: I can give solid sources for each and every number in this post (some are german though) but I will only do so if someone really wants to dig deeper into the topic. And just as a disclaimer: I don't think men are at a general disadvantage in society. But those feminists who consciously make up false claims? They know exactly what they are doing and they only fight for themselves and for selfish reasons.

1. I doubt that's true. Sure, I do think many of the statistics are misleading, but looking at most corporate jobs, you can easily see how women don't get the same treament/promotion and, as a result, salary.

2. Not sure how domestic violence is determined. But based on my limited experience (i.e. I don't think this is a proper argument) most men are victims of verbal abuse by women. I see it all the time whether it's just bfs and gfs or married couples. It makes me sick how much they oppress men.

3. Not sure about that. If the male toddlers keep being given dolls, I'm sure they'll have great fun with them. If they keep being given trucks and one day the show them both, they most likely will choose trucks over dolls. But, yes overall I do think it's more than genitalia, hence trans people. I just don't trust studies when I don't know how they were conducted.

4. Excellent points.



naruball said:
Louie said:

1. I doubt that's true. Sure, I do think many of the statistics are misleading, but looking at most corporate jobs, you can easily see how women don't get the same treament/promotion and, as a result, salary.

2. Not sure how domestic violence is determined. But based on my limited experience (i.e. I don't think this is a proper argument) most men are victims of verbal abuse by women. I see it all the time whether it's just bfs and gfs or married couples. It makes me sick how much they oppress men.

3. Not sure about that. If the male toddlers keep being given dolls, I'm sure they'll have great fun with them. If they keep being given trucks and one day the show them both, they most likely will choose trucks over dolls. But, yes overall I do think it's more than genitalia, hence trans people. I just don't trust studies when I don't know how they were conducted.

4. Excellent points.

Thanks for your well thought-out answer, it's a lot more fun to debate when people give replies like yours! I'll adress your points below.

1) I'm not an expert on the US. I could give you detailed information on the situation in Germany but I guess that would be beside the point. As for America: This video by Christina Hoff Sommers explains the matter in more detail. A study by the AAUW ("American Association of University Women") found that the actual gender wage gap shrinks to 6.6% if you factor in different career choices men and women make. The statistic that is most commonly cited ("women earn 77 cents for every dollar a man makes") is simply the average earning of men and women and does not depict income for the same work (but of course, feminists put their spin on it to make it sound more dramatic). If you factor in hours worked per week and the number of men and women being "on call" on their job (not working regular hours) the gap shrinks to about 2% that women earn less for the same work. 

2) Yeah, verbal abuse and manipulation is also a form of abuse. I was strictly refering to physical violence, though and the studies show that women physically abuse men as much as men abuse women. Here is a compilation of more than 200 studies that all show the same results. There are hardly any studies that show a significantly higher number of men abusing women than vice versa. Studies have shown the same results for decades now but there is pressure from feminists to focus on women ("if a woman hits a man she probably has a point"!) 

3) I can see how you could interpret the preference for toys as nurture instead of nature but it's highly unlikely as these babies are so young and are not in the laboratory at all times. The study about newborn babies is hard to paint as a case of nurturing of gender roles, though (after all these are newborns). Transsexuals are actually a good point here: Even feminists agree that transsexual people are "a female brain in a male body" or vice versa but at other occasions they say there is no difference between men's and women's brains. But it's really obvious when you think about it. Men and women also have different levels of hormones in their body (especially testosterone and estrogen) and hormones affect behaviour: A man with a low levels of testosterone will behave more feminine and you can make people behave more feminine or masculine by giving them hormones (which is exactly what doctors do with transgendered people). It's hard to argument that differences in males and females are only found in their genitalia when we have such strong evidence that this is not the case. (But I guess you were only sceptical about the toddler's study and I totally agree that we shouldn't believe every study we find!)

4) Thank you! 

Edit: Jeez, I think I really come across as a smart-ass in that post, sorry for that! :p



SpokenTruth said:
Jpcc86 said:

Its about not looking down or stereotyping women in the workplace, home or any enviroment, not about them having the same legal rights as men, which they currently already do... Sort of, cause the wife always gets the children after a divorce, like, wtf? what if the husband is the one with the steady jon and emotional stability? I call bs. 

Because that is BS.  Mothers don't always get the child when contested.  However, fathers don't often fight for custody or you'll have a conservative judge that think it's a woman's job to raise kids and awards the mother regardless.

Then why are many prominent feminist organizations organizing rallys and protests against laws that spring up that would put a halt to this favortism and introduce more equitable policies that favors neither husband or wife?

For example:

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/206474-womens-rights-groups-host-statewide-media-conference-sb-668

 Actions speak louder than words.



Jaicee said:
KLXVER said:
Men and women are equal in the western world now. They have the same rights. Women might even have a few more. Its not needed here anymore. Go fight for women in places were they barely have any rights.

You can take that up with the World Economic Forum because their statistics strongly disagree, as do a multitude of others far too numerous to cite.

(Here's their overall gender parity score by country. As you can see, none has yet achieved gender equality by objective, material measures.)


Here's the funny thing. Take a look at the top five countries on that list, and then take a look about the choices men and women make in terms of career, and you'll find they're more diverse and fit gender stereotypes more than almost any other country. The "gaps between men and women" is further apart than anywhere else in the world, because men and women find themselves free to pursue what they truly want to pursue.

Imagine that.



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SpokenTruth said:
potato_hamster said:

Then why are many prominent feminist organizations organizing rallys and protests against laws that spring up that would put a halt to this favortism and introduce more equitable policies that favors neither husband or wife?

For example:

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/206474-womens-rights-groups-host-statewide-media-conference-sb-668

 Actions speak louder than words.

They are against it because it's a horrible bill.   It would establish equal time share for both parents regardless of circumstances.  One could be a loving, capable parent that works full time while the other is a crack addict with no home and no job and they would still be required to split time evenly.  Even if the parents acknowledge and agree that one should have much more time with the children, they can't...law forces them to split time evenly anyway.

They aren't against it because it balances time sharing rights.  They are against it because it's incredibly bad for the children.  And the Republican governor of Florida even vetoed the bill.  You know it's a bad bill when feminists and a very conservative politician agree on why it's bad.

lol. I take it you're not a fan of the horseshoe theory?



SpokenTruth said:

They are against it because it's a horrible bill.   It would establish equal time share for both parents regardless of circumstances.  One could be a loving, capable parent that works full time while the other is a crack addict with no home and no job and they would still be required to split time evenly.  Even if the parents acknowledge and agree that one should have much more time with the children, they can't...law forces them to split time evenly anyway.

They aren't against it because it balances time sharing rights.  They are against it because it's incredibly bad for the children.  And the Republican governor of Florida even vetoed the bill.  You know it's a bad bill when feminists and a very conservative politician agree on why it's bad.

In no sane world would a law like this have the outcome you state. Men's Rights Activists don't want law to force people to split time evenly. They just want it to be the default setting. Because right now the de facto "default setting" is that women get the right to keep the children while men get "visitation rights". 

By the way: The idea to have "visitation rights" to see your own children is the most bizarre thing ever. They are your children! No one should have the right to keep a parent away from their children as long as they are mentally fit to take care of them. But that's exactly what's happening under current law. And what you stated in another post (which came down to "men often don't care for their families, which is why women keep the children") is blatant sexism of the worst kind! There are as many bad mothers out there as there are bad fathers. 



SpokenTruth said:
potato_hamster said:

lol. I take it you're not a fan of the horseshoe theory?

Oh I can repsect the theory, but it's just that feminists and conservative politicians rarely see eye to eye on issues like this.

Louie said:

In no sane world would a law like this have the outcome you state. Men's Rights Activists don't want law to force people to split time evenly. They just want it to be the default setting. Because right now the de facto "default setting" is that women get the right to keep the children while men get "visitation rights". 

By the way: The idea to have "visitation rights" to see your own children is the most bizarre thing ever. They are your children! No one should have the right to keep a parent away from their children as long as they are mentally fit to take care of them. But that's exactly what's happening under current law. And what you stated in another post (which came down to "men often don't care for their families, which is why women keep the children") is blatant sexism of the worst kind! There are as many bad mothers out there as there are bad fathers. 

Actually, current law outside of Tennessee and South Carolina do not favor either (please cite otherwise).  What does favor one over the other is conservative beliefs that it is a woman's job to raise the children.  As for men not contesting custody battles, I wish that were not the case but far more fathers do not contend custody than do mothers.  That's just the numbers.  It's not sexism.

I know, that's why I said "de facto". You are exactly right, courts favor women because they think women are more able to provide care, while men are more able to provide a check. Still, isn't it a bit strange that feminists don't fight against this form of sexism and mysoginy? One could almost come to the conclusion that they don't want things to be fair ;) Basically, what we have here is Men's Rights Activists fighting against the very "sexism" you complain about while feminists (and you) defend it. Something is very wrong with that logic in my opinion. Actually, this is sexism against men and not against women. (But of course, feminists are quick to say "positive sexism!" when women are at an advantage, without actually fighting against that positive sexism).

And the reason many fathers do not contend custoday is because they know they won't get it. It's really easy: You ask your attorney for adivce and he starts laughing and tells you to forget about it. That's the unfortunate truth. If you know you're gonna lose the battle because the court system is biased there is a chance you won't even show up for it. It's beyond me how someone can spin this into "evil men opress women by forcing them into caregiver role". 



naruball said:
Louie said:
I don't think feminists are inherently evil (and I've never heard that expression from the OP). What I highly dislike, though, is when radical feminists twist statistics to suit their purpose or simply make up false claims which then get repeated by the (in most cases well-intentioned) mass media for everyone to see.

I criticise stuff like this:

(1)- The Gender Wage Gap, which is a myth (men and women earn the same money for the same work - the statistics cited are simply the average earning of all male and female incomes and don't adjust for different career choices or hours worked - and there *are* statistics that adjust for this, they just don't get cited!)
(2)- Domestic violence as a "Gender problem" (50% of all victims of domestic violence are male and 50% of the abusers are female... and everyone knows this!)
- "Inequality" as defined by the Human Development Index (take average Life Expectancy: The HDI defines "Equality" as women having a 5 year longer life-span! If country X has an average life expectancy of women that is only 4 years higher than men's that counts as inequality. It's insane.)
- "Underrepresentation" of women in political parties and parliaments (in Europe, women are actually overrepresented here. Why? Women show much less interest in politics in general. In Germany, 40% of males but only 20% of females are "highly interested" in politics, but 36% of MP's are women. Women don't care as much for politics - so what? That's neither good nor bad. It's simply a fact.)
(3)- "There are no gender differences other than genitalia" (which is a total lie. Newborn babies already show gender differences in behaviour: girls look at faces a lot longer than boys and boys look longer at inanimate objects. Nine month old toddlers show a strong preference for "gendered" toys - boys like cars, girls like dolls. That's not nurture, that's nature.)

(4)What I would like to see is equal representation of men's and women's hardships in media and politics. What about those 75% of homeless people who are male? 9 of 10 workplace deaths are men. Men's average life expectancy is 5 years below women's. Men are more likely to die of cancer and 75% of all suicides are men. The 15 most dangerous jobs in society are mostly male (80%+). Victims of domestic violence are 50% male.
Why can't we talk about these numbers as much as we do about "the glass ceiling"? Real equality is when men and women are equally heard and equally taken care of. And that is just not the case right now.

Oh and if someone is actually interested in the stuff I said: I can give solid sources for each and every number in this post (some are german though) but I will only do so if someone really wants to dig deeper into the topic. And just as a disclaimer: I don't think men are at a general disadvantage in society. But those feminists who consciously make up false claims? They know exactly what they are doing and they only fight for themselves and for selfish reasons.

1. I doubt that's true. Sure, I do think many of the statistics are misleading, but looking at most corporate jobs, you can easily see how women don't get the same treament/promotion and, as a result, salary.

2. Not sure how domestic violence is determined. But based on my limited experience (i.e. I don't think this is a proper argument) most men are victims of verbal abuse by women. I see it all the time whether it's just bfs and gfs or married couples. It makes me sick how much they oppress men.

3. Not sure about that. If the male toddlers keep being given dolls, I'm sure they'll have great fun with them. If they keep being given trucks and one day the show them both, they most likely will choose trucks over dolls. But, yes overall I do think it's more than genitalia, hence trans people. I just don't trust studies when I don't know how they were conducted.

4. Excellent points.

Please don't validate his "points". Some of the factoids that Louie provides are true, but here's the catch: none of them (in aggregate) are caused by women and thus they do not count as gender oppression!

For example, Louie suggests that males are just as likely to be domestic violence survivors as women. First of all, that's just not true (ESPECIALLY when it comes to sexual violence); women are more likely both to be attacked by an intimate partner and also to be attacked more severely. Secondly though, and more importantly, almost all of that violence is also conducted by men. The perpetrators of domestic violence (indeed of violence in general) tend overwhelmingly to be male. As in more than 90% of the time (and 99% of the time in cases of sexual assault). (It should be understood here that no, I am not counting "verbal abuse" in the domestic violence category.)

Likewise, men may die younger, but that is not the fault of women, but rather that of men's own biology and lifestyle choices. The trade-off is that you tend to get more sex.

Or, on a less serious note, we could talk about the psychological impact of gendered toys, particularly insofaras toys did not used to be so gendered, believe it or not. That's more of a new thing and the experts say it's causing harm.

The larger point here though is that Louie's arguments are logically akin to saying that more men die in war than women. Well yes, but...who tends to control the military and the levers of government (decide when to go to war, how to fight, and who goes to war and who doesn't) and who most likely freely (especially here in the U.S.) signs up and is actually allowed to participate in all branches and roles in the army of any given country? In all cases, the answer tends to be: men. How are WOMEN responsible for this? You see my point?

Seriously, look at the demographic composition of America's corporate board rooms or Congress or the White House or the police or your college professors or the Internet (including not least this message board) or the pro sports teams you watch or who the center of the media's attention is (be it movies, video games, TV, comic books, whatever) or who owns that media, etc. Men control basically everything in America, to say nothing of the world writ large. There are marginal exceptions here and there that you can point to, but that's really a matter of reaching, not an honest look at the big picture. The big picture is that women still make 20% less than men overall despite working longer hours (once you take both paid and unpaid labor into account) and being better educated, both. And yet Louie complains of being oppressed by women. You see how that's kind of disingenuous from where I'm standing? Men don't get to blame women for the the actions and choices of other men. That's not fair at all. But let's face it: so-called men's rights activism has nothing to do with fairness.



Feminism, as it was originally conceived, was a good thing. The idea was that women should be able to do whatever they wanted and have equal rights. It was very much the same thing as the civil rights movement during the Martin Luther King Jr. era. Women wanted a voice and a seat at the table. They wanted the right to be equal, should they so choose. But like the civil rights movement, things got out of hand and bigotry, anger and resentment took hold and morphed it into something that I feel isn't beneficial to society or women in general.

It's great to want equal rights and I feel women should have that but bending the rules and man-hating is an entirely different beast.