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How Much Would a PC Cost with Specs similar to Scorpio.

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Pemalite said:
malistix1985 said:

No you are wrong, the system he made has the CHEAP 4GB 480RX in it and its a gaming machine, sure cpu is more powerfull but it won't do much since the graphics card has half the memory available, a smaller memory bus, lower memory speed, less processing cores and lower amount of overall performance.

Are you suggesting that Scorpio will use all 8GB of memory just for graphics?

But you are right. Scorpio will dwarf a Radeon 480. But a Radeon 480 isn't exactly high-end. It's mid-range. Arguing which mid-range GPU is better is pretty comedic.
Vega will be a big step up from Scorpio... And yet. All of those cards fail in comparison to what nVidia is offering in the High-End.

With that, two Radeon 470's or 480's should beat Scorpio.

 

Well, obviously a double 480 or double 470 would beat the Scorpio in performance, but not nessesarily in 4k performance, you can say a lot about console hardware and obv. pc hardware is faster and anything from a 1070 and up from a nvidia perspective will be better then the scorpio but they balanced the AMD hardware out nicely.

Pairing two weaker GPU's togheter is always a "driver" and "optimalization" thing that never did well for me personally, I tried it a few times, but the bottum line is from a console perspective what Microsoft has achieved is a big step up from what the ps4 pro did, which has a graphics card weaker then the 470RX

And no it won't use the full 8GB's available for Vram, but my expectation is that in most scenario's it will use somwhere between 6 and 6.5GB Vram for the GpU and 1-2GB for the CPU for games so any PC equalivilant card to the scorpio should have the full 8GB to make sure it doesn't hit a treshhold because when Vram runs out FPS starts dropping. Now on the PS4 Pro side most 4GB cards will be enough since it only has 5.5GB available for games ánd the memory is also much slower.

Faster memory is tricky because textures load in- and out faster the amount of memory is a little "less" relevant because of effeciency in moving scenes, now again I am not saying the graphics card is "cutting edge" or anything we've never seen before but basically its a 480 teched unit with more processing cores running on a 1080's speed memory, which is something AMD simply doesn't offer on PC.

The RX480 struggles sometimes in 4k, but generally can run quite a few games in 30/4k native but the occations it cannot are possibly fixed by AMD by the customizations, you can see where the ps4 pro sturggles and many of those factors are cleaned out by the Scorpio.

Its going to be really fun to see how it does pair up with equavilant hardware from PC and see how it competes. Overall its a nice side-kick for my future pc and I am very happy with how it turned out, but this topic is mostly about price and that will be the buy- or skip factor for many games who are on edge on buying or not buying the console, but wether it turns out to be 400 or 500 buying a pc will proberbly not get you the same 4K results in games.




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malistix1985 said:

Well, obviously a double 480 or double 470 would beat the Scorpio in performance, but not nessesarily in 4k performance, you can say a lot about console hardware and obv. pc hardware is faster and anything from a 1070 and up from a nvidia perspective will be better then the scorpio but they balanced the AMD hardware out nicely.

You sure about that? It's able to give the Geforce 1080 a run for it's money.

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/7770/amd-radeon-rx-480-crossfire-beating-geforce-gtx-1080-4k/index7.html

malistix1985 said:

Pairing two weaker GPU's togheter is always a "driver" and "optimalization" thing that never did well for me personally, I tried it a few times, but the bottum line is from a console perspective what Microsoft has achieved is a big step up from what the ps4 pro did, which has a graphics card weaker then the 470RX


I have been running Multiple GPU's since the late 90's. I can assure you, it's not that big of a deal these days.

And you are right, Microsoft has stepped it up rather massively over the Playstation 4 Pro.
The Playstation 4 Pro's GPU is actually slightly more potent than the RX 470.

malistix1985 said:

And no it won't use the full 8GB's available for Vram, but my expectation is that in most scenario's it will use somwhere between 6 and 6.5GB Vram for the GpU and 1-2GB for the CPU for games so any PC equalivilant card to the scorpio should have the full 8GB to make sure it doesn't hit a treshhold because when Vram runs out FPS starts dropping. Now on the PS4 Pro side most 4GB cards will be enough since it only has 5.5GB available for games ánd the memory is also much slower.


Good. Because your last statement made it sound like as if all 8GB of memory will be reserved for graphics duty. When it won't.

But... We also need to keep in mind that the PC is different than the consoles. A GPU doesn't need to match a console in terms of memory capacity because they both have different memory hierachy's, API's and usage.
When a PC's GPU is full, where does the data reside? System memory.

AMD also has a new technology to provide aid during low-memory situations as well which will be arriving along with Vega, aka. High Bandwidth Cache.

malistix1985 said:

Faster memory is tricky because textures load in- and out faster the amount of memory is a little "less" relevant because of effeciency in moving scenes, now again I am not saying the graphics card is "cutting edge" or anything we've never seen before but basically its a 480 teched unit with more processing cores running on a 1080's speed memory, which is something AMD simply doesn't offer on PC.


That is because AMD doesn't have any high-end GPU hardware. Vega will change that.

The RX 480 is mid-range stuff. It's not breaking any records, ironically... The 300 series had faster hardware.

malistix1985 said:

The RX480 struggles sometimes in 4k, but generally can run quite a few games in 30/4k native but the occations it cannot are possibly fixed by AMD by the customizations, you can see where the ps4 pro sturggles and many of those factors are cleaned out by the Scorpio.



That is because it was never meant for 4k.

People need to realise that the RX 480 is NOT high-end hardware. It's mid-range. The fact that console are being compared against mid-range GPU's is a testament of where they lay in terms of power relative to the PC.

AMD however is offering Crossfire to compete with the Geforce 1080 and 4k.

malistix1985 said:

Its going to be really fun to see how it does pair up with equavilant hardware from PC and see how it competes. Overall its a nice side-kick for my future pc and I am very happy with how it turned out, but this topic is mostly about price and that will be the buy- or skip factor for many games who are on edge on buying or not buying the console, but wether it turns out to be 400 or 500 buying a pc will proberbly not get you the same 4K results in games.


Agreed. However... Before Scorpio launches AMD will launch the 500 series... AMD will essentially rebadge GPU's from the last half decade and sprinkle a couple of Vega-powered GPU's on top.

The current Polaris chips should get a clockrate increase when rebadged as 500 series parts.

nVidia might also give us Pascal refresh before a Volta release.

With that, we don't know everything about Scorpio. It's CPU and GPU architectures are still an unknown.

But if the GPU is Graphics Core Next 4 or older-based, then the console will be outdated before it launches.



Pemalite said:
Mafioso said:

Fx8320E or Fx8300 and mobo...since the latest cat cores are similar perf to Piledriver and you need 8 cores to make this comparo fair  $175

Hell no. Piledriver is significantly better than the Cat Cores.
The Cat cores are extremely shit.

Mafioso said:

Based on Forza 6 Apex 4k perf profile...a GTX 1070/980ti $350

An overclocked Geforce 1060 can do Forza 6, 4k, 60fps. All Ultra settings. That would be the starting point.

 

That's if you are convinced we are talking of Jaguar as in 2012/13. At worse case scenario this is a Puma+ custom design without the memory controller bottleneck as on the PC.

I'd say based on the custom silicon and unified GDDR5 system memory, for what its meant to do , at the resolution its meant to do it in...it could perform like a Piledriver at 4K.

As far as the GPU goes, apples and oranges. A GTX 1060 has a tiny bus and limited bandwidth and less memory compared to Scorpio for games....and it drops frames at 4K.  Based on the GPU load we saw of Forza 6 Apex on Scorpio, theres lots of room for further optimizations.

Two completely different environments anyways. PC games make VERY Inefficient use of the hardware. That's why for the most part this gen you needed a GTX680 to replicate a PS4 (with a hamstrung 7870, 7850) GPU.  That's the reality...



PC I i7 3770K @4.5Ghz I 16GB 2400Mhz I GTX 980Ti FTW

Consoles I PS4 Pro I Xbox One S 2TB I Wii U I Xbox 360 S

What you 1070 people need to do is read this:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11250/microsofts-project-scorpio-more-hardware-details-revealed

It will give you a pretty detailed tech analysis as to why it should be like a "slightly more powerful 480" than anything else...



             

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Frankly, I am more concerned with the question: how much are we prepared to pay ? If the machine costs 499.- it still needs to offer some interesting enhanced or original game versions to convince me to trade in my Xbox One S. 4k is all good and stuff, but I dont think Gears 4 in 4K or Forza will convince anybody. I played those, and they are great, but not 499.- bucks great for 4k, if You catch my drift. Xbox needs a REAL showcase, a Breath of the Wild calibre showcase.



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Emme

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Captain_Yuri said:

What you 1070 people need to do is read this:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11250/microsofts-project-scorpio-more-hardware-details-revealed

It will give you a pretty detailed tech analysis as to why it should be like a "slightly more powerful 480" than anything else...

All that tells us is hints as to what we expect to pay vs Ps4 Pro. MS simply took an engineering approach to its performance and footprint goals.

Has no bearing on the box's actual performance as its a bespoke design meant to run Xbox/DX12  games to the metal...not poorly optimized,  driver overhead laden PC game code. 



PC I i7 3770K @4.5Ghz I 16GB 2400Mhz I GTX 980Ti FTW

Consoles I PS4 Pro I Xbox One S 2TB I Wii U I Xbox 360 S

Mafioso said:
Captain_Yuri said:

What you 1070 people need to do is read this:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11250/microsofts-project-scorpio-more-hardware-details-revealed

It will give you a pretty detailed tech analysis as to why it should be like a "slightly more powerful 480" than anything else...

All that tells us is hints as to what we expect to pay vs Ps4 Pro. MS simply took an engineering approach to its performance and footprint goals.

Has no bearing on the box's actual performance as its a bespoke design meant to run Xbox/DX12  games to the metal...not poorly optimized,  driver overhead laden PC game code. 

Yes but we shouldn't act like optimization is magical... Optimization will certainly help the Scorpio do much more than it's PC counterpart but I doubt it will give so much power that it will be on par with the 1070 in most instances... Just as how the Ps4 Pro was not on par with the 1060 even though people were claiming the "optimization" will do just that and even more...



             

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Just as how the Ps4 Pro was not on par with the 1060 even though people were claiming the "optimization" will do just that and even more...

It's always a little hard to tell, as the super-duper-optimized games usually are exclusives, to you can't compare them with a PC version.

Horizon looks a lot better than most games available on PC (dialog animation and complete absence of dynamic water notwithstanding,) but a lot of that is art direction and careful polishing aside from the clever optimization.



Captain_Yuri said:
Mafioso said:

All that tells us is hints as to what we expect to pay vs Ps4 Pro. MS simply took an engineering approach to its performance and footprint goals.

Has no bearing on the box's actual performance as its a bespoke design meant to run Xbox/DX12  games to the metal...not poorly optimized,  driver overhead laden PC game code. 

Yes but we shouldn't act like optimization is magical... Optimization will certainly help the Scorpio do much more than it's PC counterpart but I doubt it will give so much power that it will be on par with the 1070 in most instances... Just as how the Ps4 Pro was not on par with the 1060 even though people were claiming the "optimization" will do just that and even more...

 

Apples and oranges.

For one Scorpio has a dedicated hardware to offload CPU utilization....meaning it doesnt need a monster i7 to push GPU utilization.

Reality Check: PC = A bunch of parts slapped together on a motherboard running copper traces.

A SoC engineered PRIMARILY for rendering graphics at the silicon level has unmitigated benefits and efficiencies.

Consoles do more with less, and PC parts age faster because after 1-2 years they are no longer the focus of the driver teams.



PC I i7 3770K @4.5Ghz I 16GB 2400Mhz I GTX 980Ti FTW

Consoles I PS4 Pro I Xbox One S 2TB I Wii U I Xbox 360 S

Mafioso said:
Captain_Yuri said:

Yes but we shouldn't act like optimization is magical... Optimization will certainly help the Scorpio do much more than it's PC counterpart but I doubt it will give so much power that it will be on par with the 1070 in most instances... Just as how the Ps4 Pro was not on par with the 1060 even though people were claiming the "optimization" will do just that and even more...

 

Apples and oranges.

For one Scorpio has a dedicated hardware to offload CPU utilization....meaning it doesnt need a monster i7 to push GPU utilization.

Reality Check: PC = A bunch of parts slapped together on a motherboard running copper traces.

A SoC engineered PRIMARILY for rendering graphics at the silicon level has unmitigated benefits and efficiencies.

Consoles do more with less, and PC parts age faster because after 1-2 years they are no longer the focus of the driver teams.

Yet we see time and time again that it won't matter for most cases... Yes, scorpio has hardware that will push above it's weight (I didn't say otherwise) but there is hardly anything in it which suggests that it will deliver performance like a 1070.

Not sure what some of other PC comments have to do with anything though. Just sounds like you are taking shots if anything... And I am pretty sure the driver support is much longer than 1-2 years although I am not sure what does that have to do with anything... And it's also not like you need an i7 to take advantage of a 1070 (or most other GPUs) either.



             

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