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What will sell better, Splatoon 2 or Mario Odyssey?

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What will sell better, Splatoon 2 or Mario Odyssey?

Super Mario Odyssey. 256 76.88%
 
Splatoon 2. 43 12.91%
 
Both will sell practically the same. 23 6.91%
 
Don't know. 11 3.30%
 
Total:333
Wyrdness said:
JWeinCom said:

 

Competitive means that it involves competition.  That's what the word means.  Stop holding me accountable for your poor word choice. 

Nope.  I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that I'm not arguing this before you stop repeating it.

I don't know about more moves.  Depends how you count the various weapon types.  I'm not sure exactly what more mechanics would mean.  I also don't know what more avid means in this context.  Or how Mario's gameplay is not simple to get into.  Run, jump.  

You know what else we've been doing since the PS1 game?  Playing 3D Mario games.  

Besides, people who have been playing dual analog games since the PS1 probably don't qualify as casual gamers.

Only two of the Mario games actually were on a system that even had a second joystick, so I don't know why you would assume odyssey will use it extensively if at all.  Only 1/3 of the games have.  At any rate, you are virtually always free to come to a dead stop before adjusting the camera, which you only have to do occasionally.  In Splatoon you need to constantly control the camera, while being attacked.  Doing more things at once = more complicated.

If you think that fighting against enemies that are bound by incredibly limited patterns is as complex as dealing with other humans who have no set patterns, and can attack from multiple angles from anywhere in the level... Then you don't know what complex means.  

Yes.  Mario games are known for their incredible complexity.  Who can master the art of jumping into a wall and then pressing the jump button again?  Much easier than navigating a firefight.  You're right.  

I'm confused as to all of these buttons you're regularly using in Mario.  I'm fairly certain that every Mario game can be beaten solely with the jump, crouch, and attack/run button. And I'm actually not sure you're ever even required to use the crouch button. 

Virtually every game (including Splatoon) has a penalty for dying.  The penalty for dying in Mario is pretty minimal.  There are frequent checkpoints, the levels are not that long, and one hit kill enemies are exceedingly rare.  You're trying to make Mario sound like Dark Souls, and it isn't.  

You'll have to show me some of these matches where one team averages 15 kills and loses to another team averaging 0 kills.  Never seen anything close to that happening.

Nope competitive play is a pretty common term in the world of multiplayer games not my problem if you don't get it.

We already know Mario has various jumps and moves returning as well as use with the hat, these moves have differing applications for dealing with different situations and puzzles while in Splatoon all you have to do to use each weapon is pull the trigger and pick the one you like the feel of, they all do the same function in a different way to help different players play how they like.

Claiming anyone who has been using dual analogues since PS1 days is not a casual is so hilariously flawed we'll ignore it was even suggested, casual means someone's gaming habits are pretty basic. The are many people who have only stuck to the Fifa's and so on since those days, dual analogue is a gaming industry standard to suggest using both of them is hard for casuals is a flat out lie.

People have been playing 3D Mario since then and guess what was found out many who bought previous games weren't as keen on the 3D incarnations because it wasn't as casual friendly which is why NSMB even in the era of 3D Mario blew the latter away in terms of sales because the 3D games required a more avid approach.

It's flat out obvious Odyssey will use the second joystick it's an open world setting again, Mario 64 even had to dedicate four buttons to control the camera so guess what's going to be used in SMO for that. In Splatoon the camera is always behind you and you use it to aim basic shooter controls it's not harder in anyway. Try beating Sunshine with only run, jump and crouch, the fludd needed dedicated buttons for certain actions.

No I'm not making Mario sound like Dark Souls that's some manufactured view you've come up in you head I'm highlighting how Splatoon is more casual friendly. Dying in Splatoon and spawning seconds later and jumping straight to a team mate is less punishing then having to do a specific task over again.


Nope competitive play is a pretty common term in the world of multiplayer games not my problem if you don't get it.

 Consult a dictionary.  Competitive has nothing to do with rank.  We've had competitive games for years before online play was a thing.

We already know Mario has various jumps and moves returning as well as use with the hat, these moves have differing applications for dealing with different situations and puzzles while in Splatoon all you have to do to use each weapon is pull the trigger and pick the one you like the feel of, they all do the same function in a different way to help different players play how they like.

Using a roller is a pretty much entirely different experience from using a gatling gun.  We're assuming people who play Splatoon actually want to win, and aren't simply firing in the air.  Winning, or even just playing well, requires knowledge of the different weapons, and strategies on how to deal with each.

Claiming anyone who has been using dual analogues since PS1 days is not a casual is so hilariously flawed we'll ignore it was even suggested, casual means someone's gaming habits are pretty basic. The are many people who have only stuck to the Fifa's and so on since those days, dual analogue is a gaming industry standard to suggest using both of them is hard for casuals is a flat out lie.

I'm not sure what Fifa has to do with casual games.  But yeah, people who have been playing for 20 years and are familiar with the industry standard controls, they are likely not casual. The success of the Wii wasn't based on people who had been playing games since the NES days.

You're trying to argue that simultaneously using two joysticks is less complex than moving one.  This is mind boggling.  It's basic math and common sense that doing two things at once is more complex than doing one.

People have been playing 3D Mario since then and guess what was found out many who bought previous games weren't as keen on the 3D incarnations because it wasn't as casual friendly which is why NSMB even in the era of 3D Mario blew the latter away in terms of sales because the 3D games required a more avid approach.

Yes, 2D games are simpler.  Splatoon is a 3D game.  Are you trying to argue that Splatoon is as simple as New Super Mario Bros?  If not, I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

It's flat out obvious Odyssey will use the second joystick it's an open world setting again, Mario 64 even had to dedicate four buttons to control the camera so guess what's going to be used in SMO for that. In Splatoon the camera is always behind you and you use it to aim basic shooter controls it's not harder in anyway. Try beating Sunshine with only run, jump and crouch, the fludd needed dedicated buttons for certain actions.

It would be difficult to beat Sunshine with only run jump and crouch considering that there is no run button.  Pretty sure I could beat it with the jump, squirt, and switch nozzle buttons.  I might have to press the b button, but I would have to do so less than 5 times over the course of the game.  

Galaxy didn't require a second joystick, nor did 3D World.  There quite literally hasn't been a Mario game that required two joysticks in nearly two decades.  And even if it does, you've conveniently ignored that you are almost never required to control Mario and the camera at the same time.  

As for which is more difficult, this is common sense.

Doing two things at once is more complex than doing one thing at a time.  In Splatoon you have to constantly manipulate the camera while moving.  Mario rarely requires this.

Doing something with an active threat is more complex than doing something without an active threat.  Mario's enemies will rarely attack unless approached.  Splatoons will.

Doing something while under a time limit.  In Splatoon, if you are hit or fired at, locating your enemy quickly is literally a matter of life and death.  You're basically never required to quickly manipulate the camera in Mario.  Unless you decide to do it at a weird time, you'll have pretty much as long as you like to set things up.  In most cases, you can put the controller down, make a sandwich, walk your dog, and then move the camera, and you'll be fine.  

Controlling something is obviously more complex than not controlling it.  In all recent Mario games, the camera has been mostly automated, which is why they haven't required a second joystick.  Even Mairo 64 had an ai controlled camera (although it wasn't very good).  Splatoon's camera is fully manual.   

No I'm not making Mario sound like Dark Souls that's some manufactured view you've come up in you head I'm highlighting how Splatoon is more casual friendly. Dying in Splatoon and spawning seconds later and jumping straight to a team mate is less punishing then having to do a specific task over again.

In Mario you have basically limitless tries.  At worst, you'll be set back five minutes, and if history is any precedent, you'll have a get out of jail free card if you die more than several times.  And you can always skip the mission and do another one.  The penalty, going back for likely 2 minutes at most, is not extremely cruel.

In Splatoon if you die, you don't get to start over.  The penalty will contribute to you losing the match, as you lose valuable time.  And you don't get to simply jump to a teammate, because superjumping literally puts a giant target on your jump point.  Unless you're positive there are no enemies in the area, or that your teammates can cover you, then it's actually a pretty bad idea.  Super jumping actually isn't all that common for this reason.  Suggesting that you can just jump straight to your teammate is misleading at best.

Both games punish you in different ways that make sense for the genre.  I don't think either is more or less punishing.  They just do diffent things, because respawning wouldn't make sense in Mario, and going back to a checkpoint wouldn't make sense in Splatoon... Although that's exactly what happens in the single player mode.


I see you've completely ignored everything I said about the enemies.  I take it you accept that battling enemies with real intelligence that are not bound to any set pattern and can attack from any angle is more complex than battling enemies with simplistic set patterns that are generally placed so that you can see them in advance?


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JWeinCom said:

 Consult a dictionary.  Competitive has nothing to do with rank.  We've had competitive games for years before online play was a thing.

Using a roller is a pretty much entirely different experience from using a gatling gun.  We're assuming people who play Splatoon actually want to win, and aren't simply firing in the air.  Winning, or even just playing well, requires knowledge of the different weapons, and strategies on how to deal with each.

I'm not sure what Fifa has to do with casual games.  But yeah, people who have been playing for 20 years and are familiar with the industry standard controls, they are likely not casual. The success of the Wii wasn't based on people who had been playing games since the NES days.

You're trying to argue that simultaneously using two joysticks is less complex than moving one.  This is mind boggling.  It's basic math and common sense that doing two things at once is more complex than doing one.

Yes, 2D games are simpler.  Splatoon is a 3D game.  Are you trying to argue that Splatoon is as simple as New Super Mario Bros?  If not, I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

It would be difficult to beat Sunshine with only run jump and crouch considering that there is no run button.  Pretty sure I could beat it with the jump, squirt, and switch nozzle buttons.  I might have to press the b button, but I would have to do so less than 5 times over the course of the game.  

Galaxy didn't require a second joystick, nor did 3D World.  There quite literally hasn't been a Mario game that required two joysticks in nearly two decades.  And even if it does, you've conveniently ignored that you are almost never required to control Mario and the camera at the same time.  

As for which is more difficult, this is common sense.

Doing two things at once is more complex than doing one thing at a time.  In Splatoon you have to constantly manipulate the camera while moving.  Mario rarely requires this.

Doing something with an active threat is more complex than doing something without an active threat.  Mario's enemies will rarely attack unless approached.  Splatoons will.

Doing something while under a time limit.  In Splatoon, if you are hit or fired at, locating your enemy quickly is literally a matter of life and death.  You're basically never required to quickly manipulate the camera in Mario.  Unless you decide to do it at a weird time, you'll have pretty much as long as you like to set things up.  In most cases, you can put the controller down, make a sandwich, walk your dog, and then move the camera, and you'll be fine.  

Controlling something is obviously more complex than not controlling it.  In all recent Mario games, the camera has been mostly automated, which is why they haven't required a second joystick.  Even Mairo 64 had an ai controlled camera (although it wasn't very good).  Splatoon's camera is fully manual.   

In Mario you have basically limitless tries.  At worst, you'll be set back five minutes, and if history is any precedent, you'll have a get out of jail free card if you die more than several times.  And you can always skip the mission and do another one.  The penalty, going back for likely 2 minutes at most, is not extremely cruel.

In Splatoon if you die, you don't get to start over.  The penalty will contribute to you losing the match, as you lose valuable time.  And you don't get to simply jump to a teammate, because superjumping literally puts a giant target on your jump point.  Unless you're positive there are no enemies in the area, or that your teammates can cover you, then it's actually a pretty bad idea.  Super jumping actually isn't all that common for this reason.  Suggesting that you can just jump straight to your teammate is misleading at best.

Both games punish you in different ways that make sense for the genre.  I don't think either is more or less punishing.  They just do diffent things, because respawning wouldn't make sense in Mario, and going back to a checkpoint wouldn't make sense in Splatoon... Although that's exactly what happens in the single player mode.


I see you've completely ignored everything I said about the enemies.  I take it you accept that battling enemies with real intelligence that are not bound to any set pattern and can attack from any angle is more complex than battling enemies with simplistic set patterns that are generally placed so that you can see them in advance?

Again you not knowing the concept of terminology is not a problem of mine, competitive play and casual play are common terms with multiplayer games, your ignorance of this is not a strentgh for your argument..

No, strawman argument, someone doesn't need to know how to use all weapons to win they just need to find one they're comfortable with, dealing with each weapon is straight forward especially in casual play.

No you can have been gaming for years and be casual as being casual is determined by your gaming habits, casual gamers only stick to a few games here and there and they've been around since the NES days. FIFA is a game that many casuals pick up and often casuals would just pick up the platform that has games like these, COD is another game that attracts them as does GTA.

No I'm not arguing that using two joysticks blah blah I'm arguing that your argument is flat out daft because under your logic pressing buttons would be hard for casuals because you're using your other thumb, the only mind boggling arguments here are the ones you're desperately reaching for. It's even more contradictory when you're arguing and the game you're trying to highlight will use the second analogue stick.

If you can't understand or grasp how context in an argument works it's best you don't try to argue as 2D Mario highlights how being simple helps sell to casuals and Splatoon is more simple then any 3D Mario.

Galaxy and 3D World aren't open world like 64, SS and SMO, they're far more linear so common sense tells you that a fixed camera can work in them in an open world game though a fixed camera can be tedious to disastrous this is a prime example of what I'm talking about in you reaching in your argument.

Mario games have active threats depending on the situation, level, task etc... Mario also has situations where the threat isn't even an enemy and related to a task you're cherry picking here. Mario even has situations like underwater sections and so on which change the dynamic of the game.

Look at your argument here, a get out of jail free card, that line alone just proved my entire point about it not being as casual friendly, your comments about super jumping not being common makes me question your experience of Splatoon even more as it's very common otherwise players would lose ground trying to traverse the map another false claim in your argument.

As for enemies I didn't need to respond to it because it's already been addressed and you kept side stepping when I highlighted your logic with the MK and Smash analogy and how casuals buy that game in large numbers. Enemies who can think can not only be worse than AI controlled enemies they're still bound by the same limits as anyone else so that argument never really had any ground to begin with as it can go heavily in the other way.



Wyrdness said:

Again you not knowing the concept of terminology is not a problem of mine, competitive play and casual play are common terms with multiplayer games, your ignorance of this is not a strentgh for your argument..

No, strawman argument, someone doesn't need to know how to use all weapons to win they just need to find one they're comfortable with, dealing with each weapon is straight forward especially in casual play.

No you can have been gaming for years and be casual as being casual is determined by your gaming habits, casual gamers only stick to a few games here and there and they've been around since the NES days. FIFA is a game that many casuals pick up and often casuals would just pick up the platform that has games like these, COD is another game that attracts them as does GTA.

No I'm not arguing that using two joysticks blah blah I'm arguing that your argument is flat out daft because under your logic pressing buttons would be hard for casuals because you're using your other thumb, the only mind boggling arguments here are the ones you're desperately reaching for. It's even more contradictory when you're arguing and the game you're trying to highlight will use the second analogue stick.

If you can't understand or grasp how context in an argument works it's best you don't try to argue as 2D Mario highlights how being simple helps sell to casuals and Splatoon is more simple then any 3D Mario.

Galaxy and 3D World aren't open world like 64, SS and SMO, they're far more linear so common sense tells you that a fixed camera can work in them in an open world game though a fixed camera can be tedious to disastrous this is a prime example of what I'm talking about in you reaching in your argument.

Mario games have active threats depending on the situation, level, task etc... Mario also has situations where the threat isn't even an enemy and related to a task you're cherry picking here. Mario even has situations like underwater sections and so on which change the dynamic of the game.

Look at your argument here, a get out of jail free card, that line alone just proved my entire point about it not being as casual friendly, your comments about super jumping not being common makes me question your experience of Splatoon even more as it's very common otherwise players would lose ground trying to traverse the map another false claim in your argument.

As for enemies I didn't need to respond to it because it's already been addressed and you kept side stepping when I highlighted your logic with the MK and Smash analogy and how casuals buy that game in large numbers. Enemies who can think can not only be worse than AI controlled enemies they're still bound by the same limits as anyone else so that argument never really had any ground to begin with as it can go heavily in the other way.

Again you not knowing the concept of terminology is not a problem of mine, competitive play and casual play are common terms with multiplayer games, your ignorance of this is not a strentgh for your argument..

So, you can have a mode where you compete with other people, without that being a competitive mode.  I guess you learn something new everyday.

You can use a dictionary to verify my usage.  If you can show me a valid source that uses competitive as you do, go for it.

No, strawman argument, someone doesn't need to know how to use all weapons to win they just need to find one they're comfortable with, dealing with each weapon is straight forward especially in casual play.

Please tell me what you think a strawman argument is.  Then, explain to me how that is a strawman argument.  Because I'm not sure you know what that means.

No you can have been gaming for years and be casual as being casual is determined by your gaming habits, casual gamers only stick to a few games here and there and they've been around since the NES days. FIFA is a game that many casuals pick up and often casuals would just pick up the platform that has games like these, COD is another game that attracts them as does GTA.

I still have absolutely no idea how you're defining casual.  Nothing about GTA, COD, or Fifa makes them particularly casual games.  Especially since all of those games have a ranked mode.

By casual, I mean someone who does not have much experience with videogames.  What definition are you using.  

No I'm not arguing that using two joysticks blah blah I'm arguing that your argument is flat out daft because under your logic pressing buttons would be hard for casuals because you're using your other thumb, the only mind boggling arguments here are the ones you're desperately reaching for. It's even more contradictory when you're arguing and the game you're trying to highlight will use the second analogue stick.

See, this is what a strawman argument is.  You're claiming that I made an argument I never made, then attacking that argument.  When you use the words "under your logic" 9/10 times you're making a strawman.

I never said using two joysticks at a time is hard.  I said it is more complex than using one joystick.  By that logic, using buttons and a joystick at the same time is more complex than just using a joystick.  And indeed it is more complex, which is different than hard.  Using two joysticks, multiple face buttons, multiple shoulder buttons, a d-pad, and gyroscopic sensors all at the same time is more complex than using a joystick, two face buttons, and one shoulder button at the same time.

I never said at any point that Splatoon was an especially hard game.  I said it was more complex than 3D Mario.  More things to do at once=more complex.  It's not complicated.

You know how before I said no Mario game in over a decade and a half has required a second analog stick?  After playing Mario Sunshine a bit, I have to admit I was wrong.  NO MARIO GAME SO FAR HAS REQUIRED A SECOND JOYSTICK.  In about a half hour of play, I was able to get five shines without ever touching the C stick.  Admittedly though, I had to use the four buttons (Fludd, jump, switch nozzle, center camera) consistently.  I also had to press the B button six times for what it's worth.

I used the L button solely for camera control.  However, if I was so inclined, the Y button functions to go into first person mode, where you can adjust the camera with the left stick.  There is literally no reason you would ever have to use the second joystick in any Mario game, so a player who has difficulty with that setup will never have to use it.  On the other hand I'd be very surprised to see anyone having success in Splatoon without touching the second joystick.

If you can't understand or grasp how context in an argument works it's best you don't try to argue as 2D Mario highlights how being simple helps sell to casuals and Splatoon is more simple then any 3D Mario.

If you need to make a personal attack at every sentence because you don't have any point, maybe you shouldn't be arguing.  I am a very smart individual with a bachelor's degree in English and a Master's degree in education^_^.  My reading comprehension skills are pretty strong.  You might want to entertain the notion that the problem lies with you.

What I don't grasp is why you keep bringing up that simpler games are better selling to casuals, since that's a point I've agreed with you on several times.  I also can't grasp why when we're contrasting A and B you keep bringing up C, D, and E.

Galaxy and 3D World aren't open world like 64, SS and SMO, they're far more linear so common sense tells you that a fixed camera can work in them in an open world game though a fixed camera can be tedious to disastrous this is a prime example of what I'm talking about in you reaching in your argument.

Galaxy does not have a fixed camera except in certain parts, mainly the 2d ones.  3D World's camera is mostly not fixed either.

Mario games have active threats depending on the situation, level, task etc... Mario also has situations where the threat isn't even an enemy and related to a task you're cherry picking here. Mario even has situations like underwater sections and so on which change the dynamic of the game.

Are you contending that enemies with set patterns that are only active in your immediate vicinity are more complicated than human opponents with no set pattern that are active regardless of where you are?  

Look at your argument here, a get out of jail free card, that line alone just proved my entire point about it not being as casual friendly, your comments about super jumping not being common makes me question your experience of Splatoon even more as it's very common otherwise players would lose ground trying to traverse the map another false claim in your argument.

I don't see how that proves it.  Having a way for a player to get past a challenge that is too hard for them makes something more casual friendly.  It lets you bypass any difficult part, and focus on the challenges they can handle.  A game having a parts where someone can die does not instantly make it not casual friendly O_o...

Super jumping puts a giant target on you.  If any enemy is in the area, you will most likely be killed.  My experience is that people will more often (in Splatfest at least) opt to not utilize it, particularly in smaller maps.  Your experience may have been different, so I'm not going to "question you" if you experienced something different.  

As for enemies I didn't need to respond to it because it's already been addressed and you kept side stepping when I highlighted your logic with the MK and Smash analogy and how casuals buy that game in large numbers. Enemies who can think can not only be worse than AI controlled enemies they're still bound by the same limits as anyone else so that argument never really had any ground to begin with as it can go heavily in the other way.

No, you're addressing an argument I never made, that I am now explaining for a fourth time I didn't make.  

I'll try this one more time.  
I'll try one more way.  Adding sugar to a beverage makes it sweeter.  It doesn't necessarily make it sweet.  If I have a beverage with two teaspoons of sugar, 3 cups of hot sauce, and a gallon of citric acid, that beverage is not going to be sweet.  But, it is sweeter than it would be if it had 3 cups of hot sauce and a gallon of citric acid.

Similarly, just because Mario Kart has one complex element (intelligent enemies) doesn't mean it is automatically too complex for casual gamers.  It also has other elements that make it less complex.  For instance, the game gives better items and speed boosts to help players who are less skilled, offers an automatic mode for players who are unskilled, offers various control schemes of different complexity, primarily only involves guiding your character laterally, and so on.  

Just because it has one complex element does not mean it is a complex game.  Splatoon though has a lot of elements making it complex, and few to mitigate that.

As for your argument about AI controlled enemies being better, that's sort of ridiculous.  You've played Mario games right?  The enemies are controlled by incredibly simplistic patterns and are significantly more limited than you in what they could do.  Human foes are much more complex than goombas and koopas by a wide margin.  If a company made a game with incredibly advanced AI or where your character is vastly underpowered, you may have a point, but that's not the case here.  Mario's AI is among the simplest you'll find in any modern game.

Again for about the fifth time, there is no guarantee people are going to be equal to your skill, because that entirely depends on the average skill level of the players playing the game, and the effectiveness of the matchmaking algorithm.  The algorithm is shit, regularly pairing up level 50 players against players level 10 or below.  That's actually primarily why I stopped playing, because at level 20 something I was constantly 20+ levels below everyone else in the match, therefore less experienced, and therefore got my ass kicked.

Aside from that, if there aren't a lot of casual players to begin with, you're going to get matched up with better players.  For instance, if you have a game like Blazblue, you're going to have a hardcore fanbase, so you're not likely to get matched up with someone at your level.  If Splatoon's fanbase skews more to experienced players (which is what we're arguing about), then you're going to wind up getting paired up with people who are better than you.  

 


So, we could go round and round some more, but since you won't listen to reason (and I'm guessing you'd say the same to me) I have another idea.  I'll make a topic simply asking whether Splatoon or 3D Mario is more casual friendly, without any input from either of us to swat things (unless you'd like for us both to present our reasoning, we could do that too).  We'll count up the number of responses (up to the first 20 I think will be sufficient), and see which people feel is more casual friendly.  Winner gets sig control for a month.  Deal?



If you're playing Splatfest, are you competing with people or not?  If you're competing, it's competitive.  If you can expian to me how you compete in something that's not competitive, I'd love to hear it.

You can use a dictionary to verify my usage.  If you can show me a valid source that uses competitive as you do, go for it.

See, this is what a strawman argument is.  You're claiming that I made an argument I never made, then attacking that argument.  When you use the words "under your logic" 9/10 times you're making a strawman.

I never said using two joysticks at a time is hard.  I said it is more complex than using one joystick.  By that logic, using buttons and a joystick at the same time is more complex than just using a joystick.  And indeed it is more complex, which is different than hard.  Using two joysticks, multiple face buttons, multiple shoulder buttons, a d-pad, and gyroscopic sensors all at the same time is more complex than using a joystick, two face buttons, and one shoulder button at the same time.

I never said at any point that Splatoon was an especially hard game.  I said it was more complex than 3D Mario.  More things going on at once=more complex.  It's not complicated.

You know how before I said no Mario game in over a decade and a half has required a second analog stick?  After playing Mario Sunshine a bit, I have to admit I was wrong.  NO MARIO GAME SO FAR HAS REQUIRED A SECOND JOYSTICK.  In about a half hour of play, I was able to get five shines without ever touching the C stick.  Admittedly though, I had to use the four buttons (Fludd, jump, switch nozzle, center camera) consistently.  I also had to press the B button six times for what it's worth.

I used the L button solely for camera control.  However, if I was so inclined, the Y button functions to go into first person mode, where you can adjust the camera with the left stick.  There is literally no reason you would ever have to use the second joystick in any Mario game, so a player who has difficulty with that setup will never have to use it.

If you need to make a personal attack at every sentence because you don't have any point, maybe you shouldn't be arguing.  I am a very smart individual with a bachelor's degree in English and a Master's degree in education^_^.  My reading comprehension skills are pretty strong.


What I don't grasp is why you keep bringing up that simpler games are better selling to casuals, since that's a point I've agreed with you on several times.  I also can't grasp why when we're contrasting A and B you keep bringing up C, D, and E.

Galaxy does not have a fixed camera except in certain parts.  3D World's camera is mostly not fixed either.

Are you contending that enemies with set patterns that are only active in your immediate vicinity are more complicated than human opponents with no set pattern that are active regardless of where you are?  

I don't see how that proves it.  Having a way for a player to get past a challenge that is too hard for them makes something more casual friendly.  It lets you bypass any difficult part, and focus on the challenges they can handle.  A game having a parts where someone can die does not instantly make it not casual friendly O_o...

Super jumping puts a giant target on you.  If any enemy is in the area, you will most likely be killed.  My experience is that people will more often (in Splatfest at least) opt to not utilize it, particularly in smaller maps.  Your experience may have been different, so I'm not going to "question you" if you experienced something different.  

No, you're addressing an argument I never made, that I am now explaining for a fourth time I didn't make.  

I'll try this one more time.  
I'll try one more way.  Adding sugar to a beverage makes it sweeter.  It doesn't necessarily make it sweet.  If I have a beverage with two teaspoons of sugar, 3 cups of hot sauce, and a gallon of citric acid, that beverage is not going to be sweet.  But, it is sweeter than it would be if it had 3 cups of hot sauce and a gallon of citric acid.

Similarly, just because Mario Kart has one complex element (intelligent enemies) doesn't mean it is automatically too complex for casual gamers.  It also has other elements that make it less complex.  For instance, the game gives better items and speed boosts to help players who are less skilled, offers an automatic mode for players who are unskilled, offers various control schemes of different complexity, primarily only involves guiding your character laterally, and so on.  

Just because it has one complex element does not mean it is a complex game.  Splatoon though has a lot of elements making it complex, and few to mitigate that.

As for your argument about AI controlled enemies being better, that's sort of ridiculous.  You've played Mario games right?  The enemies are controlled by incredibly simplistic patterns and are significantly more limited than you in what they could do.  Human foes are much more complex than goombas and koopas by a wide margin.  If a company made a game with incredibly advanced AI or where your character is vastly underpowered, you may have a point, but that's not the case here.  Mario's AI is among the simplest you'll find in any modern game.

Again for about the fifth time, there is no guarantee people are going to be equal to your skill, because that entirely depends on the average skill level of the players playing the game, and the effectiveness of the matchmaking algorithm.  The algorithm is shit, regularly pairing up level 50 players against players level 10 or below.  That's actually primarily why I stopped playing, because at level 20 something I was constantly 20+ levels below everyone else in the match, therefore less experienced, and therefore got my ass kicked.

Aside from that, if there aren't a lot of casual players to begin with, you're going to get matched up with better players.  For instance, if you have a game like Blazblue, you're going to have a hardcore fanbase, so you're not likely to get matched up with someone at your level.  If Splatoon's fanbase skews more to experienced players (which is what we're arguing about), then you're going to wind up getting paired up with people who are better than you.  

So, we could go round and round some more, but since you won't listen to reason (and I'm guessing you'd say the same to me) I have another idea.  I'll make a topic simply asking whether Splatoon or 3D Mario is more casual friendly, without any input from either of us to swat things (unless you'd like for us both to present our reasoning, we could do that too).  We'll count up the number of responses (up to the first 20 I think will be sufficient), and see which people feel is more casual friendly.  Winner gets sig control for a month.  Deal?

Casual is a gamer that has basic gaming habits they don't buy or play many games and aren't as informed as an avid gamer, they mainly follow the trends what you're describing are new gamers they're not the same groups at all, as someone gaming for 28 years casual has always meant the former and they;ve been around since the NES and make up the bulk of a userbase and mainstream. If your view is the latter the is no point continuing because the will never been an agreement on as we're arguing from different definitions on a subject.

 



Wyrdness said:

If you're playing Splatfest, are you competing with people or not?  If you're competing, it's competitive.  If you can expian to me how you compete in something that's not competitive, I'd love to hear it.

You can use a dictionary to verify my usage.  If you can show me a valid source that uses competitive as you do, go for it.

See, this is what a strawman argument is.  You're claiming that I made an argument I never made, then attacking that argument.  When you use the words "under your logic" 9/10 times you're making a strawman.

I never said using two joysticks at a time is hard.  I said it is more complex than using one joystick.  By that logic, using buttons and a joystick at the same time is more complex than just using a joystick.  And indeed it is more complex, which is different than hard.  Using two joysticks, multiple face buttons, multiple shoulder buttons, a d-pad, and gyroscopic sensors all at the same time is more complex than using a joystick, two face buttons, and one shoulder button at the same time.

I never said at any point that Splatoon was an especially hard game.  I said it was more complex than 3D Mario.  More things going on at once=more complex.  It's not complicated.

You know how before I said no Mario game in over a decade and a half has required a second analog stick?  After playing Mario Sunshine a bit, I have to admit I was wrong.  NO MARIO GAME SO FAR HAS REQUIRED A SECOND JOYSTICK.  In about a half hour of play, I was able to get five shines without ever touching the C stick.  Admittedly though, I had to use the four buttons (Fludd, jump, switch nozzle, center camera) consistently.  I also had to press the B button six times for what it's worth.

I used the L button solely for camera control.  However, if I was so inclined, the Y button functions to go into first person mode, where you can adjust the camera with the left stick.  There is literally no reason you would ever have to use the second joystick in any Mario game, so a player who has difficulty with that setup will never have to use it.

If you need to make a personal attack at every sentence because you don't have any point, maybe you shouldn't be arguing.  I am a very smart individual with a bachelor's degree in English and a Master's degree in education^_^.  My reading comprehension skills are pretty strong.


What I don't grasp is why you keep bringing up that simpler games are better selling to casuals, since that's a point I've agreed with you on several times.  I also can't grasp why when we're contrasting A and B you keep bringing up C, D, and E.

Galaxy does not have a fixed camera except in certain parts.  3D World's camera is mostly not fixed either.

Are you contending that enemies with set patterns that are only active in your immediate vicinity are more complicated than human opponents with no set pattern that are active regardless of where you are?  

I don't see how that proves it.  Having a way for a player to get past a challenge that is too hard for them makes something more casual friendly.  It lets you bypass any difficult part, and focus on the challenges they can handle.  A game having a parts where someone can die does not instantly make it not casual friendly O_o...

Super jumping puts a giant target on you.  If any enemy is in the area, you will most likely be killed.  My experience is that people will more often (in Splatfest at least) opt to not utilize it, particularly in smaller maps.  Your experience may have been different, so I'm not going to "question you" if you experienced something different.  

No, you're addressing an argument I never made, that I am now explaining for a fourth time I didn't make.  

I'll try this one more time.  
I'll try one more way.  Adding sugar to a beverage makes it sweeter.  It doesn't necessarily make it sweet.  If I have a beverage with two teaspoons of sugar, 3 cups of hot sauce, and a gallon of citric acid, that beverage is not going to be sweet.  But, it is sweeter than it would be if it had 3 cups of hot sauce and a gallon of citric acid.

Similarly, just because Mario Kart has one complex element (intelligent enemies) doesn't mean it is automatically too complex for casual gamers.  It also has other elements that make it less complex.  For instance, the game gives better items and speed boosts to help players who are less skilled, offers an automatic mode for players who are unskilled, offers various control schemes of different complexity, primarily only involves guiding your character laterally, and so on.  

Just because it has one complex element does not mean it is a complex game.  Splatoon though has a lot of elements making it complex, and few to mitigate that.

As for your argument about AI controlled enemies being better, that's sort of ridiculous.  You've played Mario games right?  The enemies are controlled by incredibly simplistic patterns and are significantly more limited than you in what they could do.  Human foes are much more complex than goombas and koopas by a wide margin.  If a company made a game with incredibly advanced AI or where your character is vastly underpowered, you may have a point, but that's not the case here.  Mario's AI is among the simplest you'll find in any modern game.

Again for about the fifth time, there is no guarantee people are going to be equal to your skill, because that entirely depends on the average skill level of the players playing the game, and the effectiveness of the matchmaking algorithm.  The algorithm is shit, regularly pairing up level 50 players against players level 10 or below.  That's actually primarily why I stopped playing, because at level 20 something I was constantly 20+ levels below everyone else in the match, therefore less experienced, and therefore got my ass kicked.

Aside from that, if there aren't a lot of casual players to begin with, you're going to get matched up with better players.  For instance, if you have a game like Blazblue, you're going to have a hardcore fanbase, so you're not likely to get matched up with someone at your level.  If Splatoon's fanbase skews more to experienced players (which is what we're arguing about), then you're going to wind up getting paired up with people who are better than you.  

So, we could go round and round some more, but since you won't listen to reason (and I'm guessing you'd say the same to me) I have another idea.  I'll make a topic simply asking whether Splatoon or 3D Mario is more casual friendly, without any input from either of us to swat things (unless you'd like for us both to present our reasoning, we could do that too).  We'll count up the number of responses (up to the first 20 I think will be sufficient), and see which people feel is more casual friendly.  Winner gets sig control for a month.  Deal?

Casual is a gamer that has basic gaming habits they don't buy or play many games and aren't as informed as an avid gamer, they mainly follow the trends what you're describing are new gamers they're not the same groups at all, as someone gaming for 28 years casual has always meant the former and they;ve been around since the NES and make up the bulk of a userbase and mainstream. If your view is the latter the is no point continuing because the will never been an agreement on as we're arguing from different definitions on a subject.

 

I'm not sure why you're be using a definition of casual gamer that seemingly excludes children who haven't played games that much, excludes the kinds of people who bought the DS and Wii and made games like NSMB successful, people who are buying their first system, people who primarily play on phones, and the kinds of people who have for a while made up Nintendo's fanbase that aren't particularly into shooters or sports games (which have never sold well on Nintendo consoles, even the ones that succeeded with casual gamers).

Regardless, if we agree that simpler games sell better to casual gamers, then how we define that term is really not going to influence things.  All that would really matter is which game is simpler.  My offer stands to throw this to the community, although you understandably don't seem keen on doing so.



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JWeinCom said:

I'm not sure why you're be using a definition of casual gamer that seemingly excludes children who haven't played games that much, excludes the kinds of people who bought the DS and Wii and made games like NSMB successful, people who are buying their first system, people who primarily play on phones, and the kinds of people who have for a while made up Nintendo's fanbase that aren't particularly into shooters or sports games (which have never sold well on Nintendo consoles, even the ones that succeeded with casual gamers).

Regardless, if we agree that simpler games sell better to casual gamers, then how we define that term is really not going to influence things.  All that would really matter is which game is simpler.  My offer stands to throw this to the community, although you understandably don't seem keen on doing so.

I'm using the definition of casual that's been around since the NES, new gamers aren't casual gamers as they've only entered into the market, kids can also be casual gamers as well if they've been gaming long enough so I don't get how that definition excludes them.

You can make the thread all you want to see whether people view 3D Mario or Splatoon as more casual friendly I never said you couldn't I just don't see the worth in a bet on it as it can go either way.



Wyrdness said:
JWeinCom said:

I'm not sure why you're be using a definition of casual gamer that seemingly excludes children who haven't played games that much, excludes the kinds of people who bought the DS and Wii and made games like NSMB successful, people who are buying their first system, people who primarily play on phones, and the kinds of people who have for a while made up Nintendo's fanbase that aren't particularly into shooters or sports games (which have never sold well on Nintendo consoles, even the ones that succeeded with casual gamers).

Regardless, if we agree that simpler games sell better to casual gamers, then how we define that term is really not going to influence things.  All that would really matter is which game is simpler.  My offer stands to throw this to the community, although you understandably don't seem keen on doing so.

I'm using the definition of casual that's been around since the NES, new gamers aren't casual gamers as they've only entered into the market, kids can also be casual gamers as well if they've been gaming long enough so I don't get how that definition excludes them.

You can make the thread all you want to see whether people view 3D Mario or Splatoon as more casual friendly I never said you couldn't I just don't see the worth in a bet on it as it can go either way.

This is the first time I've heard anyone using a definition of casual gamers that specifically excluded new gamers.  I'd actually be curious to see a single use of the term casual gamer in the 1980s.

And, I don't think it could go either way.



JWeinCom said:
Wyrdness said:

I'm using the definition of casual that's been around since the NES, new gamers aren't casual gamers as they've only entered into the market, kids can also be casual gamers as well if they've been gaming long enough so I don't get how that definition excludes them.

You can make the thread all you want to see whether people view 3D Mario or Splatoon as more casual friendly I never said you couldn't I just don't see the worth in a bet on it as it can go either way.

This is the first time I've heard anyone using a definition of casual gamers that specifically excluded new gamers.  

How long have you been gaming or at least following gaming in an avid manner? It's been the definition since the NES, it's only when the Wii arrived that some people lumped all new gamers into the same group as casuals because the Wii was the first home platform which along with the DS were the first to focus on catering to casuals as evenly as avid players, the software however also attracted a lot of new gamers so many lumped them together as one group. Casual was always just about someone's gaming habits once gaming developed into a consistent hobby for the person.

Casual players make up the bulk of consumers.



You two are having a sucky argument.



Splatoon will outsell Mario in Japan, but Mario will sell more worldwide.