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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Will MGS4 live up to MGS2?

ph4nt on 04 April 2008

It is without a doubt MGS4 will be a fantastic game, but i can't help but think people are overhyping it a bit. I know Sony fans always criticize nintendo fans for thinking Miyamoto is god and that all his games are prefect. But the Sony fans think Kojima is a god and that MGs4 will be perfect.

I think MGS4 will be on par wit hthe first 3 but not better, not worse, it will be a matter of opinion which one people think will be best. I might actualyl pick up a PS3 for this game however.



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swordplay on 04 April 2008

MGS4 will be the best!



billy07 on 04 April 2008
shio said:
Played_Out said:

@ shio
I'm afraid Deus Ex is a lot simpler than MGS2. It merely tackles the notion of free will in relation to digital consiousness a la Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell. Don't get me wrong; Deus Ex is an awesome game, but it has a fairly simple (not to mention derivative) cyberpunk plot. It may be more effective than MGS2, but it is considerably less ambitious from a philosophical standpoint.

The Witcher was a great game, and it certainly trumped Oblivion in some areas, but it was definitely not a better game overall. And it seems like a strange title to mention when throwing around accusations of being an RPG n00b (hit me where it hurts why dontcha?) as it's stats system, alchemy system, spell system and levelling system were all considerably more primitive than those found in Oblivion. It also lacked any kind of character customisation, which is a definite no-no for many RPG fans (myself included).

Oblivion may have had a weak story, some questionable design decisions and the controversial "levelled" monsters, but the amount of depth in other areas more than made up for those flaws.


Have you really played Deus Ex? Because the "notion of free will in relation to digital consiousness" is but a mere bit of Deus Ex. The game tackles political philosophies, greed and ambition of the god-like, world domination, freedom of speech; and to a smaller scale the loss of identity, cloning and religion.

The story was certainly not derivative, as there are not really many cyberpunk, conspiracy-centric stories and Deus Ex's was extremely well done and might I add, is the Blade Runner equivalent in videogaming.

 

Funny thing you say Oblivion having depth, because apart from the world size and number of skills, Oblivion was very shallow. Oblivion's biggest flaw was not the leveling system, nor the weak story, nor the boring repetitive dungeons, nor the undistinguishable NPC's and Quests. Oh no, Oblivion's biggest flaw was the lack of the most important trait of RPGs.... the freedom of choice/consequence.

Basically, other than the exploration, Oblivion never gave the player a true meaning to it's actions and it almost never gave the players multiple ways to do the quests. It's terrible when no matter how many quests you did, it would always be insignificant in the grand scheme.

The Witcher did much better than Oblivion. In the Witcher your actions could heavily impact your path later on, and that is true roleplay.


 deus ex only touched upon thoe issues for a few lines at most. MGS2 had an entire 1 hour ending tackling the issues it set out to explain. There's a big difference in how deeply they explored their issues.



The_vagabond7 on 04 April 2008

an extremely out of place 1 hour ending that completely ruined the game. Seriously, if you want philosophy, go read some books, and essays. There are much better ones out there. Kojima just tacked his essay onto the end of a game. It was incredibly out of place, poorly done, and turned the game into an even bigger joke than it would've been without it. I would be willing to bet if it had a different climax and ending the game would not be so criticized by fans of the series. 

 

Adding his little essay to the end of his game doesn't improve the essay or the game. If there was an extra hour ending to "Live Free Or Die Hard" where bruce willis goes into some contrived theory on political freedom it wouldn't improve the movie, or make the theories more interesting because they are at the end of the movie. It's not more interesting just because it's at the end of MGS2 and MGS2 isn't more interesting because of the akward out of place philosophy session at the end.



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Profcrab on 04 April 2008
billy07 said:
shio said:
Played_Out said:

@ shio
I'm afraid Deus Ex is a lot simpler than MGS2. It merely tackles the notion of free will in relation to digital consiousness a la Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell. Don't get me wrong; Deus Ex is an awesome game, but it has a fairly simple (not to mention derivative) cyberpunk plot. It may be more effective than MGS2, but it is considerably less ambitious from a philosophical standpoint.

The Witcher was a great game, and it certainly trumped Oblivion in some areas, but it was definitely not a better game overall. And it seems like a strange title to mention when throwing around accusations of being an RPG n00b (hit me where it hurts why dontcha?) as it's stats system, alchemy system, spell system and levelling system were all considerably more primitive than those found in Oblivion. It also lacked any kind of character customisation, which is a definite no-no for many RPG fans (myself included).

Oblivion may have had a weak story, some questionable design decisions and the controversial "levelled" monsters, but the amount of depth in other areas more than made up for those flaws.


Have you really played Deus Ex? Because the "notion of free will in relation to digital consiousness" is but a mere bit of Deus Ex. The game tackles political philosophies, greed and ambition of the god-like, world domination, freedom of speech; and to a smaller scale the loss of identity, cloning and religion.

The story was certainly not derivative, as there are not really many cyberpunk, conspiracy-centric stories and Deus Ex's was extremely well done and might I add, is the Blade Runner equivalent in videogaming.

 

Funny thing you say Oblivion having depth, because apart from the world size and number of skills, Oblivion was very shallow. Oblivion's biggest flaw was not the leveling system, nor the weak story, nor the boring repetitive dungeons, nor the undistinguishable NPC's and Quests. Oh no, Oblivion's biggest flaw was the lack of the most important trait of RPGs.... the freedom of choice/consequence.

Basically, other than the exploration, Oblivion never gave the player a true meaning to it's actions and it almost never gave the players multiple ways to do the quests. It's terrible when no matter how many quests you did, it would always be insignificant in the grand scheme.

The Witcher did much better than Oblivion. In the Witcher your actions could heavily impact your path later on, and that is true roleplay.


 deus ex only touched upon thoe issues for a few lines at most. MGS2 had an entire 1 hour ending tackling the issues it set out to explain. There's a big difference in how deeply they explored their issues.


MGS2 deeply explored how high Kojima could get on his own sense of self-importance.  Only someone so conceited could think that they could inject an awkwardly long philosophical dissertation at the end of an action game and think it would fit.  Kojima fell prey to the same failing as George Lucas, no one working on that project had the power or balls to tell him "No".  The ending sucked, it didn't belong, the characters were annoying, and I think after it was done, someone at Konami slipped Kojima a little note that said "If you do that again, we'll remove your testicles".



Thank god for the disable signatures option.

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Smidlee on 04 April 2008

I have to say MGS2 ending was one of the worst endings I've ever seen. The story was deep alright , it went off the deep end.



rocketpig on 04 April 2008

deus ex only touched upon thoe issues for a few lines at most. MGS2 had an entire 1 hour ending tackling the issues it set out to explain. There's a big difference in how deeply they explored their issues.

Which means that Kojima failed as a storyteller. If you can't cohesively work a complex idea into a story without having to spend half an hour or more at the end explaining it all in great detail, you failed.

After all, the deepest books/movies I have ever read/seen didn't feel the need to grind everything to a halt in favor of saying "wait, you probably didn't get my point in the first 500 pages of this book or 2 hours of this movie so now I'm going to sit you down and explain it bit-by-bit." 




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billy07 on 04 April 2008
rocketpig said:

deus ex only touched upon thoe issues for a few lines at most. MGS2 had an entire 1 hour ending tackling the issues it set out to explain. There's a big difference in how deeply they explored their issues.

Which means that Kojima failed as a storyteller. If you can't cohesively work a complex idea into a story without having to spend half an hour or more at the end explaining it all in great detail, you failed.

After all, the deepest books/movies I have ever read/seen didn't feel the need to grind everything to a halt in favor of saying "wait, you probably didn't get my point in the first 500 pages of this book or 2 hours of this movie so now I'm going to sit you down and explain it bit-by-bit."


 If you told your philosophy professor at college you want to learn all the basics in the shortest amount possible from the thinnest book he'd laugh at you. Most philosophy books are 500 pages or more.



Smidlee on 04 April 2008
rocketpig said:

deus ex only touched upon thoe issues for a few lines at most. MGS2 had an entire 1 hour ending tackling the issues it set out to explain. There's a big difference in how deeply they explored their issues.

Which means that Kojima failed as a storyteller. If you can't cohesively work a complex idea into a story without having to spend half an hour or more at the end explaining it all in great detail, you failed.

After all, the deepest books/movies I have ever read/seen didn't feel the need to grind everything to a halt in favor of saying "wait, you probably didn't get my point in the first 500 pages of this book or 2 hours of this movie so now I'm going to sit you down and explain it bit-by-bit."


It's like telling a joke then after giving the punch line you have to spend 10 minutes explaining it.



rocketpig on 04 April 2008
billy07 said:
rocketpig said:

deus ex only touched upon thoe issues for a few lines at most. MGS2 had an entire 1 hour ending tackling the issues it set out to explain. There's a big difference in how deeply they explored their issues.

Which means that Kojima failed as a storyteller. If you can't cohesively work a complex idea into a story without having to spend half an hour or more at the end explaining it all in great detail, you failed.

After all, the deepest books/movies I have ever read/seen didn't feel the need to grind everything to a halt in favor of saying "wait, you probably didn't get my point in the first 500 pages of this book or 2 hours of this movie so now I'm going to sit you down and explain it bit-by-bit."


If you told your philosophy professor at college you want to learn all the basics in the shortest amount possible from the thinnest book he'd laugh at you. Most philosophy books are 500 pages or more.


Metal Gear Solid is not a philosophy book. I don't remember ever hiding under a box to evade commandos, looking at titty magazines, talking arms, or non-stop clone battles in any of my philosophy texts.

PS. There are plenty of philosophy texts well under 500 pages. Most of the ones I have read are way under that number. 




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