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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump accuses Obama of wire tapping Trump Tower before election win

It's probable that there is some truth to Trump's claims.

It took quite a few hours until some reaction, and the reaction sounds like typical bullshit PR talk meant to distract from the full truth. The reaction sounds like the wiretapping accusations are actually mostly true, and that they are trying to keep Obama clean by resorting to a kind of "STRICTLY SPEAKING, the wire-tapping wasn't ultimately ordered by Obama HIMSELF, because STRICTLY SPEAKING, nobody in the white house has ever ordered the wire-tapping of any US citizen HIMSELF" argumentation.

Maybe some of you are not aware of this, but when it comes to problematic/immoral/illegal decisions, there are several strategies like "plausible deniability" etc. meant to prevent that the leaders themselves can be held responsible.
This is basically "Watergate 2.0", and the US administration has learned its lession from Watergate 1.0: Prevent that the president himself can be held responsible.

And of course, the very fact that Obama did not instantly deny these accusations himself, but rather let one of his puppies do the denying, speaks for itself.



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Puppyroach said:

USA imposes sanctions on Russia, including costing Exxon mobil a 500 billion dollar deal. Out of the blue, Trump selects Rex Tillersson, with no foreign political experience at all, but a former CEO of Exxon mobil, as the one to discuss directly to Russia as secretary of state. Meanwhile, Michael Flynn and Jeff Session cannot remember having meetings with Russian ambassadors and when they are exposed, they don't remember what the conversations were about. More and more surrogates to Trump are exposed to having contacts with russians.

This is a complete screw up by the Trump team, so the very fact that we are discussing it just goes to shows it is being exposed by these powerful people? Would you stance be the same if it was Hillary Clintons team that had been so heavily involved with Russians in this way? Because I know I would handle it the exact same way.

Yes, because Flynn did exactly what he should have done: attempt to lower tensions and possibly prevent Russia from reciprocating to any more sanctions or explusions in the dying days of the Obama administration. Reminding them that anything Obama does will be up for review is not a scandal. His only fault was in misleading Pence about it, and that's why he was fired. Sessions did nothing even the slightest bit wrong, and the fact that there's such a flap over his words being taken out of context exposes just how little there is to the whole Russia narrative as well as just how eager the media is to flog it.

Assuming Russia is even behind the leaks there's no need for them to conspire with the Trump campaign over it. One candidate was spoiling for war and the other wasn't. It's not hard to see why Russia would favor the one who wasn't. It's peculiar how the same people who are so down on nationalism are also suddenly so panicky about foreign interference... so long as that interference is from Russia and not EU, China, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.



He's going to start wearing a tin foil hat in the shape of a hair piece. When he does, remember I told you so.



Seems like Trump supporters are more than happy to defend his decision to cool things off with Russia, a decision I completely support by the way, but let's keep our eyes on the ball for a second here; Trump's accusation, can he prove it?

I'll be more than happy if this is true, corporate democrats need to be taken down as soon as possible. I am a leftie and I am saddened by how the democrats have been handling things.



badgenome said:
Puppyroach said:

USA imposes sanctions on Russia, including costing Exxon mobil a 500 billion dollar deal. Out of the blue, Trump selects Rex Tillersson, with no foreign political experience at all, but a former CEO of Exxon mobil, as the one to discuss directly to Russia as secretary of state. Meanwhile, Michael Flynn and Jeff Session cannot remember having meetings with Russian ambassadors and when they are exposed, they don't remember what the conversations were about. More and more surrogates to Trump are exposed to having contacts with russians.

This is a complete screw up by the Trump team, so the very fact that we are discussing it just goes to shows it is being exposed by these powerful people? Would you stance be the same if it was Hillary Clintons team that had been so heavily involved with Russians in this way? Because I know I would handle it the exact same way.

Yes, because Flynn did exactly what he should have done: attempt to lower tensions and possibly prevent Russia from reciprocating to any more sanctions or explusions in the dying days of the Obama administration. Reminding them that anything Obama does will be up for review is not a scandal. His only fault was in misleading Pence about it, and that's why he was fired. Sessions did nothing even the slightest bit wrong, and the fact that there's such a flap over his words being taken out of context exposes just how little there is to the whole Russia narrative as well as just how eager the media is to flog it.

Assuming Russia is even behind the leaks there's no need for them to conspire with the Trump campaign over it. One candidate was spoiling for war and the other wasn't. It's not hard to see why Russia would favor the one who wasn't. It's peculiar how the same people who are so down on nationalism are also suddenly so panicky about foreign interference... so long as that interference is from Russia and not EU, China, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.

So Flynn did everything right, and just happened to forget to tell the truth to VP Pence? You seriously believe someone as competent as him would do that? :)

And regarding Session... he claimed he was in his position as senator when meeting the Russian ambassador, yet didn't use congressional funds to pay for the trip. In the press conference, he several times give the standard lawyer answer that according to his knowledge, the Trump campaign never came up. If they are so innocent, they are enormously incompetent and should never be close to any public office ever again.

EDIT: Sessions answers remind me of when a politician is caught with paying a prostitute for sexual favors and claim that he never realized ir was a prostitute :).



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We're going to have internet experts coming out of the woodwork. Everything I know comes from Google. I'm just going to watch the news and see how this goes.



Puppyroach said:

So Flynn did everything right, and just happened to forget to tell the truth to VP Pence? You seriously believe someone as competent as him would do that? :)

I don't think he forgot, no. He either didn't trust Pence or didn't consider that saying something as general as, "We'll be in a position to discuss it later," would be construed as discussing sanctions at the time.

Puppyroach said:

And regarding Session... he claimed he was in his position as senator when meeting the Russian ambassador, yet didn't use congressional funds to pay for the trip. In the press conference, he several times give the standard lawyer answer that according to his knowledge, the Trump campaign never came up. If they are so innocent, they are enormously incompetent and should never be close to any public office ever again.

What trip? The first meeting was at the RNC and the second was in his own office. If you mean traveling to the RNC, that's a huge stretch that it means anything because Kisylak's presence there (along with about 100 other ambassadors) was only because of an Obama State Department. Perhaps since he was involved with the campaign he felt he should pay for it out of his own funds. So what's the possible controversy? "Oh, ho! So you were acting on behalf of the campaign and not as a Senator!"? Again, this is an example of making a mountain out of a molehill because if they'd said anything untoward Obama's people would have known about it since the government was obviously spying on Kisylak at the very least.

Astonishing to me that people have the gall to go "reeeeeee! perjury!" after yawning about Holder's withholding of documents, Clapper's lying about the NSA, Hillary's repeated lies about sending/receiving classified information through a private server and then destroying evidence, etc., etc.

As for competence, they don't appear to me any less competent than your average politician. The only difference is that the media chooses to split hairs with some to try and find or manufacture inconsistencies while completely ignoring others because it doesn't serve the narrative they're creating.



Ruler said:
PortisheadBiscuit said:
Can he just STFU and be president already?? Such a whiney, gossipy, arrogant, pathetic excuse fora man.

He could be president if the CIA would stop destabilizing his government  

So it's Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Germany, and the CIA that's working together to do ... what?

Ever heard of Occam's razor? He's just dumb and incompetent (if he had just broadly invested his inheritance he would have more money now).



DarthMetalliCube said:

I don't know what "side" to believe anymore, nor do I care. I'm just gonna be sitting back enjoying the show..

^

 

By now, I could care less as well. Liberals screaming about evil conservatives, conservatives whining about "triggered snowflaked", it's hilarious

 

 

kind of ironic how conservatives typically point out how liberals "easily get triggered" when many end up tripping balls whenever they see anything involving gun control, islam, or abortions :P



LurkerJ said:

I'll be more than happy if this is true, corporate democrats need to be taken down as soon as possible. I am a leftie and I am saddened by how the democrats have been handling things.

Are you happy about Trump’s corporate cabinet? He has named several billionaire investors and corporate executives for top posts, including ExxonMobil chief Rex Tillerson for secretary of state. The world is witnessing one of the worst and most catastrophic collections of thieves and liars to ever be assembled.