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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The switch launch feels very quiet...

zorg1000 said:
potato_hamster said:

You're changing the meaning of "debunk".

I never even said it was an issue for me (it isn't). I said it bothered me (it doesn't). All I said was the situation I faced points to a clear priority in the design and development of the Switch towards it being primarily a handheld. But I do apologize for a poor choice of words there.

Ohh, you think the age in my profile is accurate? You're younger than me but not by as much as you think. My first memories of gaming were playing Super Mario Brothers and Master Blaster on the NES.

P.S. I don't know how you manage with three kids. My wife and I are having a hard enough time with our first. Props to you.

But that particular choice doesnt point to it being primarily a handheld. Xbox One is proof that such a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the "form factor" of the device since it is a 100% home console and has the same issue. The argument holds no weight.

 

And ya i assumed your profile age was accurate. But yeah its quite difficult lol they are about to be 1, 3 & 5 so definitely a handful. Im lucky that i make enough so my wife can be a stay at home mom. i dont know how she does it, i would go insane lol.

So, you're going to use a console who was never ever designed to be anything other than a home console as a justification as to why another console definitely isn't primarily designed to be a handheld? Okay.

"That is a sporty car!"

"Why would you say that?"

"Well for one, it has a 300 hp engine a-"

"My old truck has a 300 hp engine but it accelerates and handles like shit! No one would call that sporty! How can you possibly think the engine's hp is an indicator of whether a car is sporty?"

*facepalm*

I've said it once and I'll say it again - of course, alone, the fact that the mode you can play out of the box unimpeded regardless of the charge of the Switch is handheld mode is not a good enough reason to say that the Switch was primarily designed to be a handheld, but that reason, combined with others, point to me how obvious it is. How can I possibly be more clear?

sidenote: With three kids, it's probably cheaper to have your wife at home than it is to have them in day care. That shit is fucking expensive.



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potato_hamster said:
zorg1000 said:

But that particular choice doesnt point to it being primarily a handheld. Xbox One is proof that such a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the "form factor" of the device since it is a 100% home console and has the same issue. The argument holds no weight.

 

And ya i assumed your profile age was accurate. But yeah its quite difficult lol they are about to be 1, 3 & 5 so definitely a handful. Im lucky that i make enough so my wife can be a stay at home mom. i dont know how she does it, i would go insane lol.

So, you're going to use a console who was never ever designed to be anything other than a home console as a justification as to why another console definitely isn't primarily designed to be a handheld? Okay.

"That is a sporty car!"

"Why would you say that?"

"Well for one, it has a 300 hp engine a-"

"My old truck has a 300 hp engine but it accelerates and handles like shit! No one would call that sporty! How can you possibly think the engine's hp is an indicator of whether a car is sporty?"

*facepalm*

I've said it once and I'll say it again - of course, alone, the fact that the mode you can play out of the box unimpeded regardless of the charge of the Switch is handheld mode is not a good enough reason to say that the Switch was primarily designed to be a handheld, but that reason, combined with others, point to me how obvious it is. How can I possibly be more clear?

sidenote: With three kids, it's probably cheaper to have your wife at home than it is to have them in day care. That shit is fucking expensive.

Thats not what im saying at all, im just saying that one particular reason does not make it designed more as a portable.

And yes i agree that there can be other reasons for you to percieve it more like a portable but the problem is you havent stated any other reasons so thats on you.

 

All im saying is the one example you gave is a poor example.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

pikashoe said:
potato_hamster said:

You're changing the meaning of "debunk".

I never even said it was an issue for me (it isn't). I said it bothered me (it doesn't). All I said was the situation I faced points to a clear priority in the design and development of the Switch towards it being primarily a handheld. But I do apologize for a poor choice of words there.

Ohh, you think the age in my profile is accurate? You're younger than me but not by as much as you think. My first memories of gaming were playing Super Mario Brothers and Master Blaster on the NES.

P.S. I don't know how you manage with three kids. My wife and I are having a hard enough time with our first. Props to you.

Price is the reason why there is not a way to charge the joy cons while docked straight out of the box. Due to the joy cons long battery life they obviously felt it was unnecessary to add the extra cost. It has nothing at all to do with it being primarily a handheld. Again as I've already stated if the joy cons had a low battery life you might have a point, but they don't, so you don't. 

Price? Not buying it. The cost to have a simple circuit board that has a USB-C in and charges the joycon like costs less than $1 when mass produced by the millions.

The battery life of the joy cons is irrelevant. I don't see why you consider this important. It doesn't matter if a days worth of game play or a weeks worth of game play depletes the joy con, if your joycon ever dies for whatever reason, ever, you can't play in any other mode other than handheld mode unless you buy an accessory.

Just curious though, if is a completely pointless non-issue, why does Nintendo make and sell a solution for it, and why is it one of the most popular official accessories sold for the Switch on sites like amazon? Could it be that people are experiencing dead joycons, got annoyed that they had to stop playing in docked mode, and bought a solution for it?



potato_hamster said:

....

Just curious though, if is a completely pointless non-issue, why does Nintendo make and sell a solution for it, and why is it one of the most popular official accessories sold for the Switch on sites like amazon? Could it be that people are experiencing dead joycons, got annoyed that they had to stop playing in docked mode, and bought a solution for it?

If it's so popular then some people must really hate playing in handheld mode or taking a break for 20 mins while the battery charges (or using a single joycon if supported). Sounds like a lot of people refuse to use/see Switch as a handheld.

2 detachable controllers/system, wheel shells, 1-2 Switch, ARMS and Labo should make it pretty obvious that docked and 'tabletop' mode are more than just afterthoughts despite how tedious/underwhelming you think they are.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

zorg1000 said:
potato_hamster said:

So, you're going to use a console who was never ever designed to be anything other than a home console as a justification as to why another console definitely isn't primarily designed to be a handheld? Okay.

"That is a sporty car!"

"Why would you say that?"

"Well for one, it has a 300 hp engine a-"

"My old truck has a 300 hp engine but it accelerates and handles like shit! No one would call that sporty! How can you possibly think the engine's hp is an indicator of whether a car is sporty?"

*facepalm*

I've said it once and I'll say it again - of course, alone, the fact that the mode you can play out of the box unimpeded regardless of the charge of the Switch is handheld mode is not a good enough reason to say that the Switch was primarily designed to be a handheld, but that reason, combined with others, point to me how obvious it is. How can I possibly be more clear?

sidenote: With three kids, it's probably cheaper to have your wife at home than it is to have them in day care. That shit is fucking expensive.

Thats not what im saying at all, im just saying that one particular reason does not make it designed more as a portable.

And yes i agree that there can be other reasons for you to percieve it more like a portable but the problem is you havent stated any other reasons so thats on you.

 

All im saying is the one example you gave is a poor example.

But *I've* said, many times that one particular reason does not make it designed as a portable. Since the first time I mentioned it, I stated it as one of many reasons I believe this.

I don't have time, nor do I really care to get into detail about the other reasons, but they include other facts such as (in no particular order):

  • The dock's design really feels like an after thought. The dock has scratched some screens, and some have reported it has warped their switch due to poor airflow since it covers the lower air vents on the Switch. On top of that, the cable guide on the port cover doesn't work well unless you train your cables. I find my dock wanted to turn itself sideways when I first stood it up. 
  • Games tend to perform better, and run smoother handheld mode than they do in docked mode, and it's pretty obvious that this is the primary mode used when developing games in most cases. There are exceptions like Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but these tend to be the rare exception, and not the norm.
  • (Not a fact, just a suspicion) I suspect Nintendo sacrificed even higher performance in docked mode to ensure the Switch had a 3-6 hour battery life. It's underclocked from the factory, and I believe this mostly due to them favoring battery life over heat management. I'm basing this on teardowns of the Switch which show extremely limited heat management, a rather large battery, and themal tests that show a docked Switch  playing BotW running hotter than a PS4 or Xbox one.
  • Nintendo made the screen on the Switch a touch screen, and allowed developers to incorporate it's use into games, creating features which cannot be used in docked mode. Speaking of which...
  • Nintendo permits games to be made that can only be played in handheld mode but do not permit games to be made that can only be played in docked mode.
  • Nintendo included everything in the box to have the best handheld experience, but requires users to buy stands if you want to charge the Switch in tabletop mode, or controller docks/pro controllers if you want to play unimpeded in docked mode (related to previous point)
  • All Nintendo value-added game bundles have come with Switch cases, not controller docks or pro controllers, even when they make game-specific versions of those controller docks and pro controllers
  • There's other, admittedly weaker ideas about joycon design I have that I feel also point in that direction, but that might be more of a confirmation bias, and I'm hesitant to even mention them.


    It just feels to me that almost every design compromise made in the Switch does more to compromise the docked mode playing experience than it does the handheld mode. Sure, any of those points on their own don't say "Nintendo is favoring handheld mode over docked mode" but added together? It seems pretty clear to me.

    Perhaps this will help. Consider how many design and user experience decisions Nintendo made that favors docked mode over portable mode. I have:
  • Nintendo included a dock in the box.
  • Nintendo created an operating mode that can only be used while docked, that outputs a resolution that is higher than the Switch's screen.

    That's it.

    Please feel free to point out others. Perhaps I'm missing something on either side.

    That's how I see it. I'm sure some guys will undoubtedly jump in and treat each point as if they alone should prove that the Switch is primarily designed to be a handheld and the user experience favors handheld mode, but before you do, I will stress again that I am not arguing that.


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Pyro as Bill said:
potato_hamster said:

....

Just curious though, if is a completely pointless non-issue, why does Nintendo make and sell a solution for it, and why is it one of the most popular official accessories sold for the Switch on sites like amazon? Could it be that people are experiencing dead joycons, got annoyed that they had to stop playing in docked mode, and bought a solution for it?

If it's so popular then some people must really hate playing in handheld mode or taking a break for 20 mins while the battery charges (or using a single joycon if supported). Sounds like a lot of people refuse to use/see Switch as a handheld.

2 detachable controllers/system, wheel shells, 1-2 Switch, ARMS and Labo should make it pretty obvious that docked and 'tabletop' mode are more than just afterthoughts despite how tedious/underwhelming you think they are.

So your argument against Nintendo designing the Switch primarily for handheld mode is that many people use their Switch in docked mode. Okay. If that makes sense in your head.

Besides, it appears Nintendo treats tabletop mode and handheld mode as essentially the same. They even grouped them in that official graph. You wouldn't want to disagree with Nintendo, would you?

But I probably should have used "undocked" or "portable" mode for more clarity. My bad. I messed up in my initial posts. I'll go back and edit it. I apologize for any confusion

Last edited by potato_hamster - on 18 January 2018

potato_hamster said:
zorg1000 said:

Thats not what im saying at all, im just saying that one particular reason does not make it designed more as a portable.

And yes i agree that there can be other reasons for you to percieve it more like a portable but the problem is you havent stated any other reasons so thats on you.

 

All im saying is the one example you gave is a poor example.

But *I've* said, many times that one particular reason does not make it designed as a portable. Since the first time I mentioned it, I stated it as one of many reasons I believe this.

I don't have time, nor do I really care to get into detail about the other reasons, but they include other facts such as (in no particular order):

  • The dock's design really feels like an after thought. The dock has scratched some screens, and some have reported it has warped their switch due to poor airflow since it covers the lower air vents on the Switch. On top of that, the cable guide on the port cover doesn't work well unless you train your cables. I find my dock wanted to turn itself sideways when I first stood it up. 
  • Games tend to perform better, and run smoother handheld mode than they do in docked mode, and it's pretty obvious that this is the primary mode used when developing games in most cases. There are exceptions like Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but these tend to be the rare exception, and not the norm.
  • (Not a fact, just a suspicion) I suspect Nintendo sacrificed even higher performance in docked mode to ensure the Switch had a 3-6 hour battery life. It's underclocked from the factory, and I believe this mostly due to them favoring battery life over heat management. I'm basing this on teardowns of the Switch which show extremely limited heat management, a rather large battery, and themal tests that show a docked Switch  playing BotW running hotter than a PS4 or Xbox one.
  • Nintendo made the screen on the Switch a touch screen, and allowed developers to incorporate it's use into games, creating features which cannot be used in docked mode. Speaking of which...
  • Nintendo permits games to be made that can only be played in handheld mode but do not permit games to be made that can only be played in docked mode.
  • Nintendo included everything in the box to have the best handheld experience, but requires users to buy stands if you want to charge the Switch in tabletop mode, or controller docks/pro controllers if you want to play unimpeded in docked mode (related to previous point)
  • All Nintendo value-added game bundles have come with Switch cases, not controller docks or pro controllers, even when they make game-specific versions of those controller docks and pro controllers
  • There's other, admittedly weaker ideas about joycon design I have that I feel also point in that direction, but that might be more of a confirmation bias, and I'm hesitant to even mention them.


    It just feels to me that almost every design compromise made in the Switch does more to compromise the docked mode playing experience than it does the handheld mode. Sure, any of those points on their own don't say "Nintendo is favoring handheld mode over docked mode" but added together? It seems pretty clear to me.

    Perhaps this will help. Consider how many design and user experience decisions Nintendo made that favors docked mode over portable mode. I have:
  • Nintendo included a dock in the box.
  • Nintendo created an operating mode that can only be used while docked, that outputs a resolution that is higher than the Switch's screen.

    That's it.

    Please feel free to point out others. Perhaps I'm missing something on either side.

    That's how I see it. I'm sure some guys will undoubtedly jump in and treat each point as if they alone should prove that the Switch is primarily designed to be a handheld and the user experience favors handheld mode, but before you do, I will stress again that I am not arguing that.

I know you said its just one reason but if thats the only reason you give than you cant expect people to see your point of view.

Now that you have given a list of things, even though i dont fully agree, i definitely see where you are coming from.

 

As for games being able to be handheld only but not console only, thats not entirely true.

1 2 Switch (heavily marketed launch title) cannot be played in handheld mode, only console & tabletop. You can argue that tabletop mode is just a form of handheld but you cannot play the game on the go, you have to be stationary.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

potato_hamster said:
Pyro as Bill said:

If it's so popular then some people must really hate playing in handheld mode or taking a break for 20 mins while the battery charges (or using a single joycon if supported). Sounds like a lot of people refuse to use/see Switch as a handheld.

2 detachable controllers/system, wheel shells, 1-2 Switch, ARMS and Labo should make it pretty obvious that docked and 'tabletop' mode are more than just afterthoughts despite how tedious/underwhelming you think they are.

So your argument against Nintendo designing the Switch primarily for handheld mode is that many people use their Switch in docked mode. Okay. If that makes sense in your head.

Would you agree that the main selling point of each of Nintendo's new IPs (near) exclude them from being handheld games? Snipperclips (2P), ARMS (MC), 12Switch (2P+/MC), Labo.

Besides, it appears Nintendo treats tabletop mode and handheld mode as essentially the same. They even grouped them in that official graph. You wouldn't want to disagree with Nintendo, would you?

Do I agree with Nintendo or destroy your argument? Luckily I don't have to choose because I'm pretty certain Nintendo doesn't consider handheld and tabletop/offscreen/Labo modes to be the same.

But I probably should have used "undocked" or "portable" mode for more clarity. My bad. I messed up in my initial posts. I'll go back and edit it. I apologize for any confusion

Using docked/undocked isn't as clear as using handheld, tabletop and docked. You were pretty clear originally.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

The first page or so of this thread made me depressed. lol.



zorg1000 said:
potato_hamster said:

But *I've* said, many times that one particular reason does not make it designed as a portable. Since the first time I mentioned it, I stated it as one of many reasons I believe this.

I don't have time, nor do I really care to get into detail about the other reasons, but they include other facts such as (in no particular order):

  • The dock's design really feels like an after thought. The dock has scratched some screens, and some have reported it has warped their switch due to poor airflow since it covers the lower air vents on the Switch. On top of that, the cable guide on the port cover doesn't work well unless you train your cables. I find my dock wanted to turn itself sideways when I first stood it up. 
  • Games tend to perform better, and run smoother handheld mode than they do in docked mode, and it's pretty obvious that this is the primary mode used when developing games in most cases. There are exceptions like Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but these tend to be the rare exception, and not the norm.
  • (Not a fact, just a suspicion) I suspect Nintendo sacrificed even higher performance in docked mode to ensure the Switch had a 3-6 hour battery life. It's underclocked from the factory, and I believe this mostly due to them favoring battery life over heat management. I'm basing this on teardowns of the Switch which show extremely limited heat management, a rather large battery, and themal tests that show a docked Switch  playing BotW running hotter than a PS4 or Xbox one.
  • Nintendo made the screen on the Switch a touch screen, and allowed developers to incorporate it's use into games, creating features which cannot be used in docked mode. Speaking of which...
  • Nintendo permits games to be made that can only be played in handheld mode but do not permit games to be made that can only be played in docked mode.
  • Nintendo included everything in the box to have the best handheld experience, but requires users to buy stands if you want to charge the Switch in tabletop mode, or controller docks/pro controllers if you want to play unimpeded in docked mode (related to previous point)
  • All Nintendo value-added game bundles have come with Switch cases, not controller docks or pro controllers, even when they make game-specific versions of those controller docks and pro controllers
  • There's other, admittedly weaker ideas about joycon design I have that I feel also point in that direction, but that might be more of a confirmation bias, and I'm hesitant to even mention them.


    It just feels to me that almost every design compromise made in the Switch does more to compromise the docked mode playing experience than it does the handheld mode. Sure, any of those points on their own don't say "Nintendo is favoring handheld mode over docked mode" but added together? It seems pretty clear to me.

    Perhaps this will help. Consider how many design and user experience decisions Nintendo made that favors docked mode over portable mode. I have:
  • Nintendo included a dock in the box.
  • Nintendo created an operating mode that can only be used while docked, that outputs a resolution that is higher than the Switch's screen.

    That's it.

    Please feel free to point out others. Perhaps I'm missing something on either side.

    That's how I see it. I'm sure some guys will undoubtedly jump in and treat each point as if they alone should prove that the Switch is primarily designed to be a handheld and the user experience favors handheld mode, but before you do, I will stress again that I am not arguing that.

I know you said its just one reason but if thats the only reason you give than you cant expect people to see your point of view.

Now that you have given a list of things, even though i dont fully agree, i definitely see where you are coming from.

 

As for games being able to be handheld only but not console only, thats not entirely true.

1 2 Switch (heavily marketed launch title) cannot be played in handheld mode, only console & tabletop. You can argue that tabletop mode is just a form of handheld but you cannot play the game on the go, you have to be stationary.

Yeah, I consider tabletop mode to be a subset of handheld mode. I should have just called it all portable or undocked from the get-go.

My apologies for the confusion.

Edit: For what it's worth, you can actually use an xbox one controller with the xbox one even if the batteries are dead by using the USB cable.

https://support.xbox.com/en-CA/xbox-one/accessories/connect-charge-cable-to-controller

Last edited by potato_hamster - on 18 January 2018