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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo What-If? #4

 

Would the N64 have been more successful if it was disc based?

Yahoo!! (Yes) 69 78.41%
 
D'oh I missed!! (No) 19 21.59%
 
Total:88
Ljink96 on 14 February 2017
bigtakilla said:
Ljink96 said:

Most notably CG cutscenes being used to help tell the story. In a game...something on this scale hadn't been done before. It was 1997 when it came out. Work on CG probably started in 94. To put this into perspective the first full length CG movie, Toy Story debuted in 1996. Who would have thought to use this new, emerging tech in a videogame? Now most games use CG cutscenes at least once. FFVii legitimized CG in videogames and set a standard for many games to follow. I could say more but I'm tired, need to get some shuteye 😴

*edit* Weren't there Sega CD games that had cg cutscenes (Lunar and Vay to name 2), and heck, couldn't it be argued that Star Fox had CG cutscenes on Super Nintendo? 

Nope, those were FMVs. Which consisted of on the off occasion, studio animation or pixel animation. Starfox simply had hardware that rendered untextured 3D polygons without lighting. FFVII used technology that was cutting edge at the time, Pixar was the only ones who outdid them at that time. It rendred thousands of polygons, with models that were textured, rigged and fully animated with particle effects, etc. Neither of the games you've listed use the tech that FFVII utilized.



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bdbdbd on 14 February 2017
Werix357 said:

So Nintendo bungled the design, doesn't surprise me as they have done that on a couple of occasions.

Basically they did, yes. This was because N64 was supposed to be a lot more powerful than it was and everything was supposed to be done by the hardware. Instead of FMV's that were new stuff at the time N64 started being developed, Nintendo was opting for real-time animations by game engine.

I don't know if Nintendo have fucked up any other desing than this. You could argue Virtual Boy, 3DS's 3D screen and Wii U gamepad being the ones, but the problem with the latter two of them is more on the software than hardware.

Mummelmann said:

I know that the licensing policies were a result of the video game crash, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is letting publishers and developers take the entire cost of releasing and even demanding upfront payment for the cartridges that Nintendo themselves had full production rights over and then letting their own magazine do the reviews to gain complete power over 3rd parties. Paired with the strong-arming and downright threats made to retailers to prevent them from selling competing products, and you're left with tactics that are impossible to defend or attribute to the mere safe guarding against a new crash. It's no wonder why developers fled the moment they could and retailers still have a somewhat wonky relationship with them as well.

Umm... I think that's how it's done: the publisher buys the stock it's selling to retailers from the manufacturers. As far as I'm concerned, that's what everyne does, you buy your COD discs from Sony and MS (or whoever you pay to press them on PC) and the risk is yours, not the hardware manufacturers or the disc pressing facility. Just like the risk in developing a game is on who's paying it and not on the platform owner. 

On the matter of crediting the publishers, I can see both sides.

I don't know about threatening the retailers, as far as I remember, Nintendo products and competitors products have been available at the same stores, if the stores carried the products - however, elsewhere may be different. Anyway, didn't Sony and MS blackmail the retailers as well. Not in the sense that you could not carry competitors products (aside MS and Linux netbook manufacturers), but to carry their product that had no demand in order to get a product that has demand.

Ljink96 said:
bigtakilla said:

*edit* Weren't there Sega CD games that had cg cutscenes (Lunar and Vay to name 2), and heck, couldn't it be argued that Star Fox had CG cutscenes on Super Nintendo? 

Nope, those were FMVs. Which consisted of on the off occasion, studio animation or pixel animation. Starfox simply had hardware that rendered untextured 3D polygons without lighting. FFVII used technology that was cutting edge at the time, Pixar was the only ones who outdid them at that time. It rendred thousands of polygons, with models that were textured, rigged and fully animated with particle effects, etc. Neither of the games you've listed use the tech that FFVII utilized.

There was Jurassic Park years before the Pixar animations. 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

Ljink96 on 14 February 2017
Ljink96 said:

Nope, those were FMVs. Which consisted of on the off occasion, studio animation or pixel animation. Starfox simply had hardware that rendered untextured 3D polygons without lighting. FFVII used technology that was cutting edge at the time, Pixar was the only ones who outdid them at that time. It rendred thousands of polygons, with models that were textured, rigged and fully animated with particle effects, etc. Neither of the games you've listed use the tech that FFVII utilized.

There was Jurassic Park years before the Pixar animations. 

That was a film with some CGI in it the actors weren't computer generated, just some props and dinosaurs....pixar's toy story was the first FULL length fully 3D animated without any real world assets...Final Fantasy VII was the first video game to do something on that scale...ever. They were the first to make CGI cutscenes a thing in video games. We're talking about the impact that FFVII had on the gaming industry as a whole because of what Square introduced with it. I'm a 3D graphics major, most of my professors and colleagues note Final Fantasy VII-IX on the PSone and Toy Story for the reason they wanted to get into 3D. That game changed the gaming industry, we still see its effects today, and it would have make the 64 more popular than it was.

take a look at this, 

It really shows how new the tech was and for FFVII to be utilizing similar tech around the same time just for a videogame....that was groundbreaking.



bdbdbd on 14 February 2017
Ljink96 said:

There was Jurassic Park years before the Pixar animations. 

That was a film with some CGI in it the actors weren't computer generated, just some props and dinosaurs....pixar's toy story was the first FULL length fully 3D animated without any real world assets...Final Fantasy VII was the first video game to do something on that scale...ever. They were the first to make CGI cutscenes a thing in video games. We're talking about the impact that FFVII had on the gaming industry as a whole because of what Square introduced with it. I'm a 3D graphics major, most of my professors and colleagues note Final Fantasy VII-IX on the PSone and Toy Story for the reason they wanted to get into 3D. That game changed the gaming industry, we still see its effects today, and it would have make the 64 more popular than it was.

take a look at this, 

It really shows how new the tech was and for FFVII to be utilizing similar tech around the same time just for a videogame....that was groundbreaking.

Toy Story and FFVII may have been technically more advanced, but I considered Jurassic Park more impressive. 

I don't know if N64 had been more popular if it had CGI animations in it's games. There were lots of people like me, who prefer animations done by the game engine, but on the other hand, a number of popular PSX games were advertised with their animations. In the end, this wasn't the problem N64 had, so it's doubtful it had made a difference.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

h2ohno on 14 February 2017
bdbdbd said:
Ljink96 said:

That was a film with some CGI in it the actors weren't computer generated, just some props and dinosaurs....pixar's toy story was the first FULL length fully 3D animated without any real world assets...Final Fantasy VII was the first video game to do something on that scale...ever. They were the first to make CGI cutscenes a thing in video games. We're talking about the impact that FFVII had on the gaming industry as a whole because of what Square introduced with it. I'm a 3D graphics major, most of my professors and colleagues note Final Fantasy VII-IX on the PSone and Toy Story for the reason they wanted to get into 3D. That game changed the gaming industry, we still see its effects today, and it would have make the 64 more popular than it was.

take a look at this, 

It really shows how new the tech was and for FFVII to be utilizing similar tech around the same time just for a videogame....that was groundbreaking.

Toy Story and FFVII may have been technically more advanced, but I considered Jurassic Park more impressive. 

I don't know if N64 had been more popular if it had CGI animations in it's games. There were lots of people like me, who prefer animations done by the game engine, but on the other hand, a number of popular PSX games were advertised with their animations. In the end, this wasn't the problem N64 had, so it's doubtful it had made a difference.

It would be nice if more people realized the difference between pre-rendered CGI animations and actual in-game graphics, but that usually isn't the case.  And the way the prerendered scenes allowed for a more cinematic camera at the time was a big advantage.  People flocked to the PS1 in large part because it had more 'cinematic' games like FF7 and MGS.  Had the N64 had those cinematic games in addition to the multiplayer and exploration games it would have been much more popular.

The N64 was actually outselling the PS1 before FF7 came out.  But once FF7 hit the PS1 took off like crazy.  Imagine what would have happened if FF7 had launched instead on a system that was selling more to begin with. 



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bigtakilla on 15 February 2017
Hynad said:
bigtakilla said:

We are talking about cutscenes, and Lunar and Vays were computer generated unlike Sonic CD and Night Trap which were not. CG cutscenes were a thing before Final Fantasy VII.

The cutscene in Lunar are not CG cut-scenes. They're the same as the cut-scenes seen in any other games of that time. Images with rudimentary animated facial features at best. They're not videos. They're not what we refer to as CG cut-scenes. 

A series of images that contain motion and spoken dialogue  (which Final Fantasy VII didn't have) is not a video? You didn't take any video classes have you? 

This isn't a video?

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anbhNTtrx4M

I think your perception of what's bolded I think is clouding your judgement.



Hynad on 15 February 2017
bigtakilla said:
Hynad said:

The cutscene in Lunar are not CG cut-scenes. They're the same as the cut-scenes seen in any other games of that time. Images with rudimentary animated facial features at best. They're not videos. They're not what we refer to as CG cut-scenes. 

A series of images that contain motion and spoken dialogue  (which Final Fantasy VII didn't have) is not a video? You didn't take any video classes have you? 

This isn't a video?

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anbhNTtrx4M

I think your perception of what's bolded I think is clouding your judgement.

Videos as in video files. You are clearly being dishonest on purpose here. And I wonder what you're trying to pull here. 



bigtakilla on 15 February 2017
Hynad said:
bigtakilla said:

A series of images that contain motion and spoken dialogue  (which Final Fantasy VII didn't have) is not a video? You didn't take any video classes have you? 

This isn't a video?

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anbhNTtrx4M

I think your perception of what's bolded I think is clouding your judgement.

Videos as in video files. You are clearly being dishonest on purpose here. And I wonder what you're trying to pull here. 

Explain me being dishonest?



Werix357 on 15 February 2017
bdbdbd said:
Werix357 said:

So Nintendo bungled the design, doesn't surprise me as they have done that on a couple of occasions.

Basically they did, yes. This was because N64 was supposed to be a lot more powerful than it was and everything was supposed to be done by the hardware. Instead of FMV's that were new stuff at the time N64 started being developed, Nintendo was opting for real-time animations by game engine.

I don't know if Nintendo have fucked up any other desing than this. You could argue Virtual Boy, 3DS's 3D screen and Wii U gamepad being the ones, but the problem with the latter two of them is more on the software than hardware.

Yeah I remember when it was as the Ultra 64 the rumored specs would have made it a beast.

Yeah I would say Nintendo stuffed up with the Gamecube and Wii U GameCube because of the console design and using proprietry disc drive didn't help. The Wii U was to under powered to make proper use of the Gamepad.



Hynad on 15 February 2017
bigtakilla said:
Hynad said:

Videos as in video files. You are clearly being dishonest on purpose here. And I wonder what you're trying to pull here. 

Explain me being dishonest?

You know full well that when people talk about CG cut-scenes, they mean 3D computer graphics videos that aren't rendered in real-time by the hardware. Which, again, Lunar: The Silver Star on the Sega CD didn't have any. You're the only one here who isn't on the same page as everyone else on that. And I still wonder what reason you have for doing this.