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Forums - Politics Discussion - Turkey's Erdoğan approves bill giving him sweeping new powers

Sharu said:
Safiir said:

Sooo...when was the last time foreign diplomats went to Russia in order to organize rallies during a major russian election?

USA ambassador in 2011. Between parlament and president election. 

While you may argue that the US embassy is offering aid in one form or another to russian protesters (which I'm pretty certain is absolutely true) it is not really comparable to what has happened in Netherlands. A similar situation would be to have Hillary Clinton (acting as secretary of State) to come and make a public speech. I'm using Clinton as example since you brought up 2011. But any Secretary of State would work.



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VGPolyglot said:
Goatseye said:

In theory... and that's a paradox. 

Anarchy doesn't mean order by the way. To have order, you have to have structure, which is absent in an anarchic state.

No, it's not. Catalonia and Western Ukraine had anarchist movements with a structure, until they were crushed by Franco's troops and the Soviet Union respectively.

We're derailing this thread and Catalonia's economy was a socialist one btw during that short period of time. I'll read up more on it and Western Ukraine and get back to you. Let's stay on topic.



Goatseye said:
VGPolyglot said:

No, it's not. Catalonia and Western Ukraine had anarchist movements with a structure, until they were crushed by Franco's troops and the Soviet Union respectively.

We're derailing this thread and Catalonia's economy was a socialist one btw during that short period of time. I'll read up more on it and Western Ukraine and get back to you. Let's stay on topic.

OK, but I hope that you realize that the majority of anarchists are socialists.



VGPolyglot said:
Goatseye said:

We're derailing this thread and Catalonia's economy was a socialist one btw during that short period of time. I'll read up more on it and Western Ukraine and get back to you. Let's stay on topic.

OK, but I hope that you realize that the majority of anarchists are socialists.

The bulk of economy was taken care of by communists in Catalunya during that period.



Safiir said:
Sharu said:

USA ambassador in 2011. Between parlament and president election. 

While you may argue that the US embassy is offering aid in one form or another to russian protesters (which I'm pretty certain is absolutely true) it is not really comparable to what has happened in Netherlands. A similar situation would be to have Hillary Clinton (acting as secretary of State) to come and make a public speech. I'm using Clinton as example since you brought up 2011. But any Secretary of State would work.

Biden in Ukraine in 2014, helping to overthrow its elected president and putting his son to high position in an Ukraine shale gas company is good enough example? And govdep supporting protesters with free cookies?



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Goatseye said:
VGPolyglot said:

OK, but I hope that you realize that the majority of anarchists are socialists.

The bulk of economy was taken care of by communists in Catalunya during that period.

Yes, anarcho-communism exists, my signature is the flag of anarcho-communism. Communists are socialists.



VGPolyglot said:
Goatseye said:

In theory... and that's a paradox. 

Anarchy doesn't mean order by the way. To have order, you have to have structure, which is absent in an anarchic state.

No, it's not. Catalonia and Western Ukraine had anarchist movements with a structure, until they were crushed by Franco's troops and the Soviet Union respectively.

anarchy always leads to despotism, because anarchy is the weakest form of state, the state without power - foreign powers or regional warlords will very quickly take the reigns into their hands



Sharu said:
Safiir said:

While you may argue that the US embassy is offering aid in one form or another to russian protesters (which I'm pretty certain is absolutely true) it is not really comparable to what has happened in Netherlands. A similar situation would be to have Hillary Clinton (acting as secretary of State) to come and make a public speech. I'm using Clinton as example since you brought up 2011. But any Secretary of State would work.

Biden in Ukraine in 2014, helping to overthrow its elected president and putting his son to high position in an Ukraine shale gas company is good enough example? And govdep supporting protesters with free cookies?

Oh, you're really not getting me in the Ukraine shit flinging.



Lafiel said:
VGPolyglot said:

No, it's not. Catalonia and Western Ukraine had anarchist movements with a structure, until they were crushed by Franco's troops and the Soviet Union respectively.

anarchy always leads to depotism, because anarchy is the weakest form of state, the state without power - foreign powers or regional warlord will very quickly take the reigns into their hands

But that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. If it really didn't, they would have just let them collapse as that as a propaganda tactic to show that anarchism doesn't work. However, considering that they invaded them they must have felt threatened.



VGPolyglot said:
Lafiel said:

anarchy always leads to depotism, because anarchy is the weakest form of state, the state without power - foreign powers or regional warlord will very quickly take the reigns into their hands

But that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. If it really didn't, they would have just let them collapse as that as a propaganda tactic to show that anarchism doesn't work. However, considering that they invaded them they must have felt threatened.

Why was there ever a need to show that anarchism doesn't work though? I think people with lust for power will simply perceive it as a weak system that can't mobilize and fanaticise it's citizens and just take what's up for grabs. As a german I'm very wary of idealistic systems that have so little means of self-preservation.

In my opinion both anarchy and communism can work in small communities and on short time scales, but I have no clue how they can effectively defend themselves against being toppled from in or outside (anarchy) or being quickly transformed into a system with an elite wielding absolute power with a tiny layer of communistic paint on it. The later is how pretty much every successful communism movement that I'm aware of turned out.

As we can see in this very topic even democracies (that work with a lower level of idealism) like in Turkey are vulnerable.