Without VR Scorpio is more of a waste of time and money to me.
I'll end up waiting for it, then get a xbox one s anyway if Scorpio doesn't offer anything extra.

From Guru3d.com

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-r9-rx-480-8gb-review,10.html

But other sites have pretty similar results +- margin of error framerates

Just remember that this is the average fps, so the game does go lower and higher

Only thing interesting would be letting devs do what they want. While sony only limits framerates to be same on ps4 and no exclusives, this could potentially make the scorpio set apart by not having it tied down with the x1, like the pro is tied to the ps4.

But still, the lack of games will be the biggest hurdle for MS.

Pro doubled the PS4 Pitcairn CU's from 18 to 36, so could Scorpio quadruple or more the XB1 Bonaire CU's from 12 to 48 or even 60 maybe?

I dunno. I guess anything is possible, but I dont see why just using Polaris wouldn't make more sense. Its still GCN, its cheap, its in production, its 14nm, and already has 36 CU's which brings it to a max stock 5.8Tflops. With semi custom they wouldn't have to add all that many more CU's to reach the target 6Tflops at an acceptable clock rate.

They have to be waiting for Ryzen or Vega or both. There is no reason for XB to hold back Scorpio an entire year if they were just going to take the XB1 and beef it up just like how PS4 was beefed up to become Pro. Maybe it's a higher clocked Jag or Puma but I would hope not, and with Phil mentioning balance multiple times they would need very high clocks on those CPU's. Could be the newer low power Carrizo Excavator CPU's, slap 2X 4 core together like XB1 Jag and theres your 8 cores.

I still think XB knows they screwed up big time with XB1, and they know their exclusive line up can't match PS or NIN, so the only thing to do is offer a really powerful console at an acceptable price. Something like what PS4 was at launch, but even more powerful for its time, like the 360. Something that would cast a dark shadow on PS4 and Pro in terms of hardware. Ryzen would most certainly do that whether Scorpio uses Bonaire, Polaris, or Vega.

If it's much like the PS Pro then MS was very misleading with their marketing. What I think a lot of Xbone users are expecting is exactly what MS has hyped. The most powerful console ever, and we can expect MS's own games to run in native 4k. Now, if it's "much like the Pro" in terms of 3rd party games, well, only the delusional would be disappointed in that, because we've been told nothing by anyone that would lead them to believe otherwise. MS has said from the start their games would be native 4k and third parties are free to do whatever. There's not much reason for them do put a lot more effort into the Xbone builds than PS4, unless they already have a comparable PC build ready to go.

Either way, at the very least, it will run games better than the Pro, the games will look better than on the Pro. That's pretty funny given how the gen started and all the fucking fuss we heard about 900p vs 1080p and all the threads we got making sure Xbone owners understood their versions looked slightly worse and had a slightly less stable framerate. That's been the most entertaining part about this link. PS4 is around 40% or so more powerful than the Xbone and it's a huge deal. Scorpio is around 40% more powerful than Pro and MS somehow still fucked it up. So much faux outrage and concern trolling :)

@bold, who in the world honestly expected that? It seems a lot of people have the expectations of the general Xbone user far off when it comes to the Scorpio. Despite what you might see or hear in various Youtube videos, most of us aren't expecting an $800 God in a box console that MS will sell for less than $400 that will instantly sell hundreds of thousands of units, run all games in native 4k at 60fps and magically turn around the console race. Again, we're expecting nothing more than what has been shown. The most powerful console ever. MS games in native 4k.

Another incorrect assumption I've seen during talks about this leak is the idea that Xbone users excited or looking forward to the Scorpio must by default be disappointed in the Xbone. False. I play my Xbone way way more than my PS4 because of the controller, UI, and superior online play. If you're telling me I keep all of that, AND get better running games and the most powerful console ever? Why would I not be all over that? It's no different than when a new phone comes out. Was every person who upgraded from a iPhone 6 to a 7 disappointed in the 6? No. They wanted the superior technology. This is no different.

The Playstation 4's GPU from the beginning was not a direct clone of Pitcairn, it had some customizations such as the ACE units.

The Xbox One might take a similar approach though, so a direct quad-drupling of most of the chip is a possibility... It's hard to say which direction they will go at the moment.
Vega will be more clock-rate optimized than Polaris, which microsoft could take advantage of, so they could get away with a smaller chip but higher clock speeds.

True.

They likely didn't start their half-gen upgrade untill well after Sony, so that explains part of the delay.

There is some potential improvements that we know of already, such as the L2 Cache (IF it is for the CPU and not the GPU that is.)
An increase of 4x is nothing to sneeze at.
The Xbox One and Playstation 4 have 4Mb of total L2 Cache (In a 2x2Mb configuration) and the Xbox One could be quad-drupling that number to 16Mb or 2x8Mb, that should result in some decent performance gains for the CPU without touching on clock rates.

The reason why we might as well not expect an Excavator based Carrizo or Zen is cost.
Those chips eat up a ton of transistors that could be spent on the GPU.

Basically a Halo product.
AMD and nVidia don't release high-end GPU's like Fury and Titan because they move a ton of hardware and make a ton of cash... They sell them because it is a Halo product, people look at Benchmarks and see AMD or nVidia on top and think that company is better overall... And that can boost the sales of other GPU's.

While it's true many on both sides have flipped their stance on various issues in light of the due circumstances, believing the PS4's power advantage was a positive and that the Scorpio is a mess up aren't inherently contradictory beliefs. While i'd personally disagree with the latter (i'd have preferred Sony held off for at least a few months, even if i am happy with the Pro), because of MS's early mistake the PS4 was able to have its power advantage without the common downsides; a higher price and/or later release. With the Scorpio, MS have had to accept a much later release and a likley higher price for that power. While some of us may consider that worth it, it's certainly a significant enough change in variables that alternative positions can be held about the benefit of a power advantage in both instances.

Yeah except that in this reality, the only variable that changed was Fanbase A had the most powerful console, now Fanbase A doesn't have the most powerful console, lol. That is literally it. No one cared about price in those threads, it was all about having the best looking multiplatform games. Now, of course, that's just not good enough :(

I didn't say who cares about what, I simply pointed out that the two positions aren't inherently contradictory. If you want to paint all PlayStation gamers with the same brush then so be it, I personally won't do the same of Xbox gamers, but claiming power is 'literally' the only changed variable is nonsense. What kind of effect the later release and potentially higher price will have is certainly up for debate, but as changed variables they do literally exist :p

The console APU's are all semi custom to some degree yes. All good points though.

Possibly, but I find that unlikely considering PS4 is the more powerful console and decided it was time for an upgrade 3 years into the gen. Maybe PS heard rumours that XB was shooting for 4 years and decided to get Pro out asap for a head start on Scorpio. Maybe XB heard rumours that PS was shooting for 3 years and wanted to wait and see what Pro had hardware wise so they could answer accordingly. Maybe XB just wants a Pro with slightly higher Tflops so they can use that power marketing to their advantage this time. Maybe XB waited purposely so they could start "next gen" early again and get a jump on PS5. So many possibilities.

True. Die space isn't infinite. The leaked cache improvements would surely help Jag. Since PS and XB had Jag at 28nm and decided to have it made on 16nm for both Slims and improved on Pro, it could very well be beefed up even more for Scorpio and would save on space and cost. Phil and his "balanced" quote make it sound like it should be (Carrizo) Excavator or Ryzen, but what XB says right now seems to be just whatever everybody wants to hear so...

Depends on your definition of halo I guess (no XB pun intended).

The problem I have with this, is that we're talking consoles and not PC's. There's good reason why a true halo console like the PS3, had such poor sales early on. Price and lack of games (cell). It's also the reason why PS4, as well as Pro, were $399 at launch, and have lots of games (x86).

AMD and NVIDIA can sell miniscule amounts of Fury and Titan (to draw attention) because they sell lots and lots of 480's and 1060's etc. For XB to try this with Scorpio would never work because they would have to rely on the One S gaining serious marketshare from PS4, which isn't going to happen. Scorpio has to hit $399-$499 and has to do it's share of making up the gap on PS4 as well as Pro (or start completely fresh as next gen).

I would say their best chance is for XB to do the same thing AMD just did to NVIDIA. Don't try and go head to head with your best and worst. Let your competition come out with their best (Pascal/Pro) while you come out with your worst (Polaris/One S), then a year later come out with your new best (Vega/Scorpio) and try to gain some marketshare by being the most powerful (for a period of time). It worked for the 360 (minus the red ring launch rush).