I've played through Chrono Trigger half a dozen times, but its story - while endearing - is not especially complex. More, trying to equate "complexity" with "quality" is problematic in several ways, especially since you seem to be equating "complexity of narrative" with "complexity of plot", whereas the latter is only a very small sliver of the former. I'm reading Moby Dick for the first time - Moby Dick - and it is more complex than Chrono Trigger in every way that doesn't involve time travel.

Planescape Torment destroys any JRPG, it's almost luaghable to suggest otherwise.

oh wow this thread came back?

I have to disagree with AC. Especially his tier list of story telling and complex games. I never found any of these games from the ones I played all that complex. I think what's breaking down is that there is a difference from deep, complex and interesting. Chrono Trigger and Xenogears had interesting stories with a tad of complexity, but that was mostly done in it's story arc, narration and plot sequence of information. These stories were personally more fun like a candy and something to just enjoy. Where as Planescape was more emotionally charged. I never was attaches to any of the characters in Xenogears or Chrono Trigger. I liked some more than others, but if they died in the story it was well just the fun story. In Planescape I found some more of a bonding with the characters including the Hero. The world mattered.

Sorry. But I'm taking in that AC list and judgement are more about what's fun and candy than sustenance. Xenogears is a desert, Plancescape is a full course meal. As a kid it's all about the sweets and deserts, but now that i'm an adult I find my self more interested in the flavors of the actual meal.

The games I listed as well as being among the most deep and complex stories are also among the most emotive ones as well, helped incredibly not only by incredible emotive storytelling but incredible emotive composition by the man who does it best: Yasunori Mitsuda. His works on the Xenogears, Chrono and Xenosaga series are nothing short of remarkable and the very best that are out there at drawing out the audience's emotions.

Planescape: Torment really doesn't have that much more to offer than any other Bioware/Black Isle/Obsidian game, its only real differentiating factor being its fantastical, and quite frankly weird setting.

Xenogears is quite simply a more advanced piece of storytelling. Its story is far deeper (far greater quantity of themes and detail with which the themes are explored, these include deep philosophical, religious, psychological and political themes, and it actually uses some of those themes as the very foundation with which the story is told (God is Dead, The Slayer of God, You Shall be as Gods, eternal recurrence, the Overman)), far more complex (complicated subject matter and narrative, an abundance of mystery and ambiguity, seemingly unrelated events connecting together in a manner that thematically fits, revelations that make the player question everything they believed they knew about the story up until the mentioned revelation, a tonne of symbology). It's perfectly acceptable that you may prefer Planescape: Torment, but at least admit that Xenogears is at the very least a more intelligent and advanced piece of work.

BTW is it just me or does this forum take forever to load?

Also, ask yourself this question, which game would Friedrich Nietzsche, Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and Jacques Lacan prefer? I think we all know the answer to that.

I think the main issue here is that more and more Western gamers are starting to really dislike the stylistic approach that JRPGs (and Xenogears is no exception here) generally take, and even if you don't it's somehow become cool or popular to hate on them. In a way its a testament to Xenogear's quality; even people who hate JRPGs will still rate Xenogears (and the likes of Chrono Trigger) really highly. I can guarantee you people who dislike WRPGs (i.e. me) have no love for Planescape: Torment. But that's cool in a world where the likes of Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic are critically acclaimed it's really not that shocking that people can have shockingly bad taste.

You uh

You still haven't qualified Chrono Trigger as "complex", there.

You can spout off all the hyperbol you want - I haven't playd enogears - but so long as I do know the game you mean, it's not a point you're going to be able to get away from. Explain to me how Chrono Trigger is complex.

Nietzsche would probably get a kick out of KotORII, actually, since Kreia is basically the man proclaiming that God is dead.

Jung would, undoubtedly, like Super Mario Bros.

Actually I dislike Xenogears, and I actualy liked JRPGs back when I played it...