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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Scorpio Presentation Spotted at AMD’s CES 2017 RYZEN/Vega Booth

Solid-Stark on 08 January 2017
Pemalite said:
Solid-Stark said:

I've been wanting to ask someone about this and you are very knowledgeable. Why didn't Sony/Cerny go with Puma+ on the PS4 Pro?

I recall reading that it was more straightforward to keep Jaguar since the logic wouldn't change. Developers woud be tasked with accomodating the extra GPU resources. Since it was a lighter job they would be more likely to support the Pro. Doesn't this imply (assuming Scorpio doesn't keep Jaguar) that it's more tedious to support Scorpio?

I also recall reading that a higher frequency probably would have meant an external power supply. But I'd take a 2.5GHz Puma+ for stable framerates..

Likely cost. Jaguar is a small chip, takes time and money to thoroughly test and verify the CPU blocks in these monolithic SoC's, so you are right, they get to keep allot of the logic.
It allowed Sony a shorter time to market by sticking with a known quantity and keeps everything cost efficient.

Also ensures complete compatability with the Playstation 4.

Microsoft's case is a little different though.
Microsoft already has to do some massive changes to it's SoC, such as the new Memory Controller to adopt the GDDR5 standard... And likely removal of the eSRAM (Unless they retain for compatability purposes and use it like an L4 cache in Scorpio mode. - Which still requires changes.) which took up a massive % of the Xbox One chip.

Plus Microsoft won't be just doubling it's GPU and making some alterations to a few of the blocks, they will likely be taking advantage of the new Architecture found in Vega which is a massive overhaul to Graphics Core Next.
Microsoft is probably more willing to eat the development costs to get the leg-up over Sony... And will use software to bridge the compatability gap.

And nope. Puma+ is just as energy efficient as Jaguar. In-fact more so, it has a massive reduction in power leakage, so it wouldn't have required an external PSU... You would be surprised how powerful a PSU can be made to fit inside Slim ITX cases these days anyway.

Thanks for the input!

Cost is one factor taken lightly in all this Scorpio speculation. It's hard to see this console priced less than $499 unless MS takes a loss, assuming it has a Vega GPU and a Ryzen cpu (unlikely imo). It will end up being the most powerful console but it wont help the brand in terms of marketshare. 



e=mc^2

Gaming on: PS4 Pro, Switch, SNES Mini, Wii U, PC (i5-7400, GTX 1060)

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thismeintiel on 08 January 2017
endimion said:
thismeintiel said:

Kinda doubt it'll be a hybrid console.  You honestly think MS is going to have it where you can plop one disc into either a Scorpio or XB2 and play on both systems, only with upgraded graphics?  Highly doubt that.  They may have said that to cause a stir, but once they realize Nintendo and Sony aren't down for that, though more importantly devs and pubs, AND that they would be losing money on people who double dip for remakes/upgrades, they'll abandon it real quick.  Nah, it'll be just like any other gen.  We'll get cross-gen games and maybe devs/pubs who will offer free or at low cost upgrades to their games, but tey will still be different games on different discs. 

I doubt MS revealing a XB2, even if it is slightly more powerful than a PS5, will really hurt the WW appeal of the next PS5.  Especially if it is B/C with the highly successful PS4, while still launching for just $399.  Of course, if the Scorpio flounders out the gate, a XB2 will become farther from a certainty.

then you completely miss the point... First MS never competed directly with Sony it's just a mere consequence of being in the console market... It's more about cutting any entry point to the living room to true big players like google/alphabet, amazon, apple etc... You know the company MS are actually threaten by...

with that in mind MS is trying not only to supress the concept of generation changing console consomption into something more streamlined... For everybody consumers and developers.... But that's just a fragment of the true goal... They want to remove the concept of device.... Through software unification... Develop for on target and automatically adapt to all if needed...

what this mean is devs could cut cost, take advantage of the latest HW while keeping the game available for older device owners those widening the market.... But it could also mean that MS could eventually have third party hardware manufacturer do XBox compatible device... Opening the door to the competition but with their Software/ecosystem on it.. XBOX being just a showpiece like the surface line is for other devices.. I pretty sure that's MS objective maybe not today or tomorrow but in a future not so far from now...

 

the real question Sony fans should ask themselves is in what shape Sony will be 5 years from now??? Knowing very well how the company is terribly manage at the European level, not leveraging their strength in one sector to push up their struggling division even after hundreds of recommendations from consulting partners in various field... I guarantee you the Sony you know today is not the one of tomorrow... Pretty sure after the VAIO branch the Phone branch will be the next to go.

anyway bottom line Sony is a blimp on MS radar when it comes to both companies future and Sony is more struggling than MS... Yes they are competing on the console market by design but in the long run they have very different objectives...

MS never competed with Sony?  That's a good laugh.  The only reason MS got into the console biz is they were worried about Sony taking over the living room and possibly affecting their computer business, which a ridiculous assumption by them.  So, they figured they could spend their way to the top and take Sony out.  Looks like it didn't work out so well. 

And the only reason they spoke of generationless consoles was to try to create some stir/buzz.  I guarantee that when it is completely obvious that Nintendo and Sony have no interest in that, they will drop that BS.  And really, I haven't heard too much from them lately about it.  In the end, 2nd place doesn't delegate where the market goes, 1st does.

As far as Sony goes, they have righted the ship, so I don't know what you are talking about poor management.  Kaz has done a great job of turning that company around.  That's a fact that not even Xbox fans can ignore.

DirtyP2002 said:
thismeintiel said:

But you also have to think about price. Of course, MS has played both sides of that, as well. Earlier on they were talking about a premium product for a premium price, basically suggesting this thing will be $499-$599, maybe more. More recently, they have been talking about it not costing as much as people think. I'm wondering if they have looked at the performance of the Pro, seeing that mid-gen upgrades are a little more niche than they thought, and have scaled things back to keep price down. I don't think the Scorpio is going to be as decked out as people think.  Maybe a slightly upgraded CPU architecture, maintain the 8gb of RAM, just a better type, and of course, a better GPU.  I see the price being $449-$499, the latter being if they do use a Vega GPU.

Quite a few assumptions.

Let me tell you, why you are wrong.

 

1st The Pro is on the market for 7 or 8 weeks now. There is not much reliable data available to check how it actually performed. And no, a company like Microsoft does not base its decisions on Amazon rankings. Heck, December NPDs aren't even out yet.

2nd Even if it turns out that the Pro really underperformed, there are more reasons than "mid-gen upgrades are niche" as you claim. Maybe the Pro just isn't powerful enough to convince hardcore players and too expensive to convince casuals to pay $100 more. Maybe 4k is not mainstream enough yet. Maybe people wait for the Scorpio to get the real deal. MS might see it like they need to avoid the mistake Sony did and pimp the Scorpio up even more. WHO THE HELL KNOWS?!

3rd MS said it loud an clear that they want to build the most powerful console possible. "It is a monster" is a direct quote. If it turns out to be just slightly more powerful than the Pro, their marketing team will have a lot of work to do.

4th MS wants to distance itself as much as possible from the Xbox One and the PS4 ( PS4 Pro. They want to find their niche. They will not win anything when the general perception is like "I can do that with my Xbox One, too." or "Just the Xbox One Pro". They need USPs to sell their products. They are doing it right now with the Xbox One S and the 4k BluRay-drive. They will do the same with the Xbox Scorpio, show the public why it is so different and better than all the consoles out there. Showing software that can't be done on any other console is a great selling point, don't you think?

So, if I get this straight, you think the Scorpio, a console that will appeal to a handful of countries, is going to do better than the Pro, an upgraded version of a console that has dominated WW (and continues to do so), because its a little more powerful.  Oh, and without anymore exclusives, as those games are going to be on PCs, as well.  Gotcha.

And if this thing really is "a beast" you can kiss that $399 pricepoint goodbye, which is going to hurt its chances greatly.

LudicrousSpeed said:
thismeintiel said:

But you also have to think about price. Of course, MS has played both sides of that, as well. Earlier on they were talking about a premium product for a premium price, basically suggesting this thing will be $499-$599, maybe more. More recently, they have been talking about it not costing as much as people think. I'm wondering if they have looked at the performance of the Pro, seeing that mid-gen upgrades are a little more niche than they thought, and have scaled things back to keep price down. I don't think the Scorpio is going to be as decked out as people think.  Maybe a slightly upgraded CPU architecture, maintain the 8gb of RAM, just a better type, and of course, a better GPU.  I see the price being $449-$499, the latter being if they do use a Vega GPU.

Still, at that price, as far as sales go, it's going to make little difference. First of all, the Scorpio is only going to affect things in a handful of countries, namely US, UK, and possibly AU.  Xbox just isn't the WW brand PS is.  Secondly, people have already shown they are still happy with their PS4s until the PS5 comes out, with Pro being a more niche product. Now, that might change this year when Sony drops the Pro to $299-$349, but I'm sure a $199 Slim will still sell more. It's possible Xbox gamers will turn out to be more likely to upgrade, but it won't be at any significant margin. And if Sony does decide to do a full $100 cut of the Pro this year, the Scorpio doesn't have a prayer. That will probably be a $150-$200 price advantage. Finally,...

The Scorpio is just too late to change anything. We started getting rumors about the PS4 and XBO in early 2012. If the same thing happens this time, we should be getting them early 2018, only a few months after the Scorpio launches. That can't be good for sales. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony let out some controlled leaks. And the Scorpio may only be getting a Vega GPU to keep costs down, but after 2 years, I'm sure costs will be down for Sony to make a damn good system with Vega and Ryzen for $399, plus any advancements 2 years and Sony's teams can bring.

Better CPU, better RAM, better GPU... how much more "decked out" do you expect it might be? Sounds like you're expecting a larger upgrade than most of us. I also highly doubt MS thinks this will suddenly win them the generation. Maybe they just think this will extend this gen and give them more sales than the Xbone could have. It will also help to further remove them from the Xbone stigma, which Spencer and the new regime have done a good job accomplishing thus far.

No offense but you always predict this may be the last Xbox console. According to.your past predictions, we shouldn't even be seeing the Scorpio. Microsoft should have conceded defeat and permanently left the hardware business. 

Nice way to ignore the slighty in my statement to push a false narrative.  But, not surprising in the least.  I guess you have not been following Scorpio threads, or have selective memory.  People have been talking about this thing being a beast.  Ryzen CPU AND Vega GPU, with 12GB of RAM, probably DDR4 or HBM.  Maybe 6 Tflops is just a lowball.  Which, hey, maybe they are right.  But, expect this thing to be $549+, which means it can just forget about being more than extremely niche.

I don't really how I could have predicted that the 360 would be the last console gen for them, since they did damn good that gen.  Though, I do remember saying that the XBO gen could be the last.  And they really are making steps toward that being a possibility.  Focusing more on Windows, even at E3.  Taking all exclusives away from Xbox to help towards that goal.  No longer spending the kind of money they used to on advertising deals and 3rd party exclusives.  Even Bill Gates has said he would be completely fine with them spinning off Xbox, which would pretty much mean its sale or death.  If Scorpio does nothing for the Xbox brand and flounders around after launch, XB2 will become less of a certainty.



 

Pemalite on 08 January 2017
thismeintiel said:

Ryzen CPU AND Vega GPU, with 12GB of RAM, probably DDR4 or HBM. 

HBM and DDR4 isn't happening.
We know there are 12 memory chips due to the CGI render... And we know it has 320GB/s of bandwidth from statements that Microsoft has made.
So we can ascertain from that information alone that it will be GDDR5/GDDR5X based on a 384bit memory bus.

thismeintiel said:

Maybe 6 Tflops is just a lowball.

The flops figure is thanks to Microsoft stating as such.
But it's also pretty irrellevent by itself.
Scorpio is likely set to be based around Vega, thus doubling performance over the Playstation 4 Pro is probably going to be likely, despite it only increasing "the flops" by 50%.

craighopkins said:
The rep said the Scorpio slide was in the ryzen booth for a reason. If you guys think the rep is lying and they put the slide there by accident then u are kidding yourself. Even Spencer and Greensburg hinted at it

It means squat until we get some better information.

You forget the Vega connection with Ryzen. Ryzen isn't just a CPU you know, it's also an APU. ;)



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EricHiggin on 09 January 2017
Pemalite said:

He *helped* design. There has been a ton of work done to Ryzen since he left a few years back, otherwise if the CPU was completed before he left it would be on the market already. ;)
I am not understating the work he has done though. He is an amazing architect and has put AMD on the correct path, as long as they keep up their momentum and don't let the platform stagnate for half a decade again, they should be able to reclaim marketshare... And might actually be worth purchasing their CPU's again. (FX is absolute garbage.)
But we also need to set realistic expectations, Ryzen is not going to beat Intel.

Are you serious?
Do you expect your console to cost the same amount as a decent PC?
Sony tried that once with the Playstation 3. They were ridiculed for it.
Microsoft tried that with the Xbox One and they were ridiculed for it.
The Neo-Geo tried that and they were ridiculed for it.
The 3DO tried that and they were ridiculed for it.
The CDi tried that and they were ridiculed for it.
The 3DS was priced fairly high, they were ridiculed for it.
Ergo. Price is a stupidly *important* factor that you shouldn't underestimate.
Microsoft is well versed on the pricing issue having been burned as recently as the Xbox One's launch price, I doubt they would like to repeat past mistakes and why would they?
Scorpio will be a more "premium" console relative to the Xbox One S which was down to $250 AUD here, so double that price in AUD is a realistic expectation in my eyes after supply/early adopter tax settle.
So from historical context alone, we can ascertain that pricing is going to be at a reasonable level and there will be a few corners cut in order to achieve such targets, we also have recent examples of good pricing with the Playstation 4 Pro that sets a successful example for Microsoft to follow.
You simply cannot have the best of everything in a console and a cheap price.
And I will reiterate. If anyone thinks Scorpio will have a fully-intact 8-core Ryzen CPU in Scorpio, then you are going to be sorely dissapointed, so let's nip such expectations in the butt right now, it is not going to happen. Period.

Microsoft stating that the cost won't be as high as people think is somehow a more vague statement than throwing around Teraflops? Please.

I never stated that the Scorpio is going to be a loss-leading product?

I disagree and think Microsoft should do the opposite.
Scorpio could double the performance (or more) of the Playstation 4 Pro in terms of GPU capability, they would be silly not to market it as the "next generation of gaming" and take full advantage of their superior graphics capability.
Plus the Delta between the Xbox One and Scorpio could be rather significant, certainly a larger jump than the Playstation 4 and Playstation 4 Pro brought, that's for sure, they would be silly not to capitalize on that.

Jim didn't do everything, but I think we can agree that he no doubt got AMD started on right path and left them in a good position so Ryzen should actually be competitve with Intel from an overall perspective, based on what we know.

 

Cost to the customer matters to a certain extent, but the value also matters, just not quite as much, but it does matter. You can't tell me that if PS3 was $399 and $499 to start, that sales wouldn't have been much much higher than they were early on. I'm not saying MS is going to build a $749-$999 beast like PS3 and sell it for $399, we know that $599 was even a problem for PS, but XB could definitelty build an Excavator or Ryzen + Vega APU based system for $599 ish, and sell it for $499. If PS is selling consoles at cost as they say, then Pro costs $399 to build. For another $99to$199, MS can get a WAY better APU by next fall. 

XB1 price was a small part of the problem. While there were MANY issues, the fact that you could buy a more powerful console, PS4, for cheaper, was a no brainer. Thats a big reason that helped 360 go toe to toe with PS3 (360 looked more powerful for years, but we all know it wasn't at its core) I think everyone would be willing to admit, that if XB1, didn't have the DRM/online/kinect issues, and had made a console that was say 2.5 Tflops, for $499, most 360 gamers would have stayed and bought XB1, and obviously other consumers would have been inclined to get One for those reasons.

If MS decides to take that approach this time around, no gimmicks, they will be back to selling consoles closer to par with PS like they were with the 360. However, the XB1 fiasco, most certainly has left a scar, that will not be easily forgiven. The S model has helped, but its only a bandaid. A Pro style console with a better GPU, is not going to be enough to stop people from looking back at that scar and sighing. A Ryzen+Vega+12GBGDDR5 level console, for $499, would be enough for them to keep their eyes on the screen and off of the old scar.


Throwing around TFlops is pretty easy to make a close guess. They won't make it less than 6, we all know that, and sure it could end up 7, but the higher those TFlops go, the better that CPU has to be, or its all just numbers for marketing. XB has to keep things fairly simple for devs. Thats another reason PS4 hammered XB1 for the first couple of years.

When XB says price wont be higher than consoles before, we all know that means less than $599. Since Pro was a premium console at $399, we can conclude Scoprio will be $399 to $599, based on what we know.

 

You never said MS isnt willing to take a loss, but you also keep saying price is so important and thats part of the reason it wont be Ryzen and Vega. Well if MS decides to pull a PS3 (which truthfully, look at how they launched XB1, while its unlikely, it could happen) then they could very easily use a certain version of Ryzen and Vega in Scorpio and lightly or heavily subsidize it.

 

Building a slightly better Pro, and calling it Scorpio, is not going to improve sales all that much this gen. People will be paying attention to Scorpio, when it comes to what XB says they are offering, and what your getting, based on the XB1 launch. If MS says it'll be slightly better than Pro, and it is, then many people won't bother. If they say "its a beast", and its not, they will get called on it and shunned like they were back before the S model came out. If they say "its a beast", and it is a beast, for $499, many XB1 gamers will jump on it, and XB gamers who went PS4 will be tempted to go back, and other people in general, like the spec crazed individual, will want it.



Chris Hu on 09 January 2017
Ganoncrotch said:

Forza Horizon 4( k ) confirmed for Scorpio launch?

I'm pretty sure Forza Motorsports 7 has to come out first.



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Hardcore_gamer on 09 January 2017
Chris Hu said:
Ganoncrotch said:

Forza Horizon 4( k ) confirmed for Scorpio launch?

I'm pretty sure Forza Motorsports 7 has to come out first.

Could have been VR version of forza horizon ? 



LudicrousSpeed on 09 January 2017
thismeintiel said:

Nice way to ignore the slighty in my statement to push a false narrative.  But, not surprising in the least.  I guess you have not been following Scorpio threads, or have selective memory.  People have been talking about this thing being a beast.  Ryzen CPU AND Vega GPU, with 12GB of RAM, probably DDR4 or HBM.  Maybe 6 Tflops is just a lowball.  Which, hey, maybe they are right.  But, expect this thing to be $549+, which means it can just forget about being more than extremely niche.

I don't really how I could have predicted that the 360 would be the last console gen for them, since they did damn good that gen.  Though, I do remember saying that the XBO gen could be the last.  And they really are making steps toward that being a possibility.  Focusing more on Windows, even at E3.  Taking all exclusives away from Xbox to help towards that goal.  No longer spending the kind of money they used to on advertising deals and 3rd party exclusives.  Even Bill Gates has said he would be completely fine with them spinning off Xbox, which would pretty much mean its sale or death.  If Scorpio does nothing for the Xbox brand and flounders around after launch, XB2 will become less of a certainty.

Slightly what? You said you expect upgrades to the CPU, RAM, and GPU. In other words, pretty decked out. No need for a false narrative, it's right there in your own words. If anything, the false narrative would be you talking about what "people think" as if it's a large group or even the majority because maybe a couple people might have maybe said something in this one supposed thread or another. I do follow Scorpio threads.. expectations seem very tapered, and rightfully so as we have no concrete info. Of course there might be a small handful who are predicting God in a box, but those type of people exist for all platforms.

Who said anything about the 360? You have said many times you don't think there would be another Xbox console if the Xbone got outsold badly. It's getting outsold badly, and yet Microsoft is not only about to launch another console, it's the most powerful console ever. Bill Gates said he'd support MS's decision to sell off Xbox if Nadella decided to, answering questions and just showing support for Nadella, nothing more. Either way, that doesn't have anything to do with you constantly predicting the end of Xbox :)

Adding development costs and R&D and marketing costs by adding Windows versions to all their Xbone games, not to mention unifying Xbox with Windows in a bigger fashion than ever before also seems like the last thing a company would do if they were expecting to spin or sell off the division. And we've never had any idea what these companies spend on marketing deals, but MS has snagged plenty this gen. The PS4 is the market leader, it makes sense companies would want to partner with Sony for a marketing deal. That doesn't really speak to how much MS is willing to spend. For all we know it would be costing them more this gen to snag the deals they have gotten given the sales breakdown versus last gen when they dominated the PS3 in the US. We don't know.



Ganoncrotch on 09 January 2017
Chris Hu said:
Ganoncrotch said:

Forza Horizon 4( k ) confirmed for Scorpio launch?

I'm pretty sure Forza Motorsports 7 has to come out first.

in the OP "New Horizon"



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DirtyP2002 on 09 January 2017
thismeintiel said:
                                       

 

 

 

DirtyP2002 said:

Quite a few assumptions.

Let me tell you, why you are wrong.

 

1st The Pro is on the market for 7 or 8 weeks now. There is not much reliable data available to check how it actually performed. And no, a company like Microsoft does not base its decisions on Amazon rankings. Heck, December NPDs aren't even out yet.

2nd Even if it turns out that the Pro really underperformed, there are more reasons than "mid-gen upgrades are niche" as you claim. Maybe the Pro just isn't powerful enough to convince hardcore players and too expensive to convince casuals to pay $100 more. Maybe 4k is not mainstream enough yet. Maybe people wait for the Scorpio to get the real deal. MS might see it like they need to avoid the mistake Sony did and pimp the Scorpio up even more. WHO THE HELL KNOWS?!

3rd MS said it loud an clear that they want to build the most powerful console possible. "It is a monster" is a direct quote. If it turns out to be just slightly more powerful than the Pro, their marketing team will have a lot of work to do.

4th MS wants to distance itself as much as possible from the Xbox One and the PS4 ( PS4 Pro. They want to find their niche. They will not win anything when the general perception is like "I can do that with my Xbox One, too." or "Just the Xbox One Pro". They need USPs to sell their products. They are doing it right now with the Xbox One S and the 4k BluRay-drive. They will do the same with the Xbox Scorpio, show the public why it is so different and better than all the consoles out there. Showing software that can't be done on any other console is a great selling point, don't you think?

So, if I get this straight, you think the Scorpio, a console that will appeal to a handful of countries, is going to do better than the Pro, an upgraded version of a console that has dominated WW (and continues to do so), because its a little more powerful.  Oh, and without anymore exclusives, as those games are going to be on PCs, as well.  Gotcha.

And if this thing really is "a beast" you can kiss that $399 pricepoint goodbye, which is going to hurt its chances greatly.                                    
                               

 

That is not what I said. Not in any way.



Imagine not having GamePass on your console...

Chris Hu on 09 January 2017
Ganoncrotch said:
Chris Hu said:

I'm pretty sure Forza Motorsports 7 has to come out first.

in the OP "New Horizon"

That probably has nothing to do with Forza Horizon even though Forza Horizon is getting popular enough to get a yearly release but since some of the cars in Horizon are actually better suited for Motorsports and some of the cars in Motorsports are better suited for Horizon one game for each franchise every other year makes more sense.  Since both games use the same car models with just slightly different handling differences between games it would be cool if the DLC  cars would work for both games one day.