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Forums - Politics Discussion - "We live in a post-factual world."

Indeed. I see a lot of politicians running early smear tactics because they pride themselves on being winners, and they try to set up the narrative in advanced that should they be declared a loser in a massively public showing, it's everyone's fault but theirs.
Trump did it (turned out he didn't need to of course)
French and Australian politicians are doing it now.
I say the same thing I said about the Trump win, if people are stupid enough to swallow this kind of nonsense and forget that they're listening to politics where everything anyone says is almost by definition a lie, then they deserve all that they get.



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Of course we live in a post factual time. The "truth" is in the eyes of the observer. Truths have become a point of view, based more on emotions than actual facts. It's actually been like that for more than a decade, but this is the first time it has had serious consequences for the whole world. We live in a sad time, and our grand children will curse us for the stupidity of 2016.



We live in a factoid age when its become kind of a sport to challenge the axioms just to see how many people can stupidly latch on to them. In a high tech society, people still have stone age mentalities. It's why we have so many groups of weirdos that the internet is giving rise to like anti-vaccers and flat-earthers. When you don't want to do research because it doesn't fit an agenda or you're lazy, make some shit up.



DonFerrari said:
Funny people here criticizing he was upholding both Clinton before but now criticizes them. Yes, that is a complain most democrats did, so Trump is viewed as much more as a Democrat highjack than a true Republican.

And on scietinfic disbelief... leftwing push the "gender ideology" that is completely bogus but get applause, they deny economic knowledge and push for socialism and that is humanitarian, they go against freedoms but that is ok because they want our good.

I feel like you're talking about me but didn't feel the need to quote me, as if I wouldn't see this comment. Since I'm the only one in this thread mocking Trump for supporting the Clintons and then flip flopping on how he said Bill was a great president and Hillary was a great senator in order to get in the good graces of Republican voters. Also on left wing "denial" of science.

So, first off, do you have nothing to say about his flip flopping on Bill? He's always said that the economy was great under Clinton and that his presidency was a good one. Did 1992-2000 change once Trump was a Republican candidate, so now all those years are terrible? What made him change his years long stance other than to get Republicans to pick him? 

Secondly, "gender dysphoria" is an actual thing. It's scientifically studied. I, personally, don't "get it". But just because I don't get it doesn't mean it's "bogus". You're perpetuating the right wing "denial of science" when you say it's "bogus" even though the evidence is clear that it is a condition. So, try again on left wingers "denying science and evidence". 

Lastly, "denying economic knowledge and push for socialism"? Is that a bad thing? First off, the US is already socialist. The police that protect you? That's a socialist program as it uses money from the collective to be used for public/common good or service. Those roads you drive on that are maintained throughout the year and the interstate that you hop on to get from A to B? That's a socialist program via DPWs and DOTs, which use money from the collective to be used for a public/common good or service. The majority of kids being able to get an affordable primary education instead of having to go to $15,000 year private schools? That's a socialist program via public education, which uses money from the collective to be used for a public/common good or service. That's all socialism is. But you're probably one of those people who get McCarthy era triggered by the S-word and think socialism is the government taking over everything......which is actually communism. Big difference. The kind of person that says the phrase "socialist communist" to describe someone who wants universal healthcare. 

But more importantly, every industrialized western civilization is socialist. At least, the kind of "socialist" that you're afraid of. And, ironically enough, you talk about "going against freedoms", but many of those other countries have higher GPDs per capita than the US, many of them rank higher in the World Happiness Report than the US, many of them rank higher in the Heritage Economic Freedom Index than the US, many of them rank higher in the Cato Institute's Human Freedom Index than the US, etc. 

Denying universal health care and basically telling people that if you're sick (something that happens naturally the majority of the time), you better be rich, otherwise you're doomed to either die or live in insurmountable debt......that is more "against freedom" than paying a little more in taxes so everybody has a better quality of life. In fact, you don't even have to increase taxes; just reprioritize them. But if you say "hey, maybe our military budget doesn't need to be bigger than the next 10 countries combined, most of which are allies" or "hey, maybe we shouldn't be sending out all this foreign aid to countries that do nothing for us", and instead want that money to be used to invest in the American people; then you're a lazy "socialist" who just wants a handout. As if such an important investment like as an education (which gives you better chance to be more financially stable) is a "handout". Like it's on par with an Xbox or cell phone or something.



Great post.

I find myself often thinking sarcastically "not true, takes less than a minute to debunk, but hey; it's okay because we live in a post factual world."

Kind of like Obama's America where Americans were living a post racial United States.

How did that work out?

In the case of our current post factual world, more than ever, the onus of fact checking has shifted from media sources who can no longer be trusted thanks to the erosion of their relevance in terms of viewership/readership that resulted in the polarization of the media via outside monetary influence. They still need ad revenue and outside industry support to keep the presses running. In some cases, media sources just like money because they feel entitled to it or they just want more stuff. Everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't we taste a taste too.

So, now it's upon the reader/viewer to verify sources, most of which are either not equipped to do because they are used to being fed information that they accept as the truth, or not capable of doing because they are the victims or beneficiaries of their own polarized biases.

Those who are capable on the other hand, can pick and choose sources and data (VGC users should be no strangers to cherry picked data used by select opinions) or hey; even completely make up data or narratives to explain incidents. This is far more insidious than the gullible fool who simply states the sky is falling because an apple fell off a tree and hit them on the head.

So no, we do not live in a post factual world.

We live in a world in which false, fabricated and deliberately misleading information (imaginary tales are information too) will be presented as "fact" by those who would plot to deceive, inveigle and obfuscate.



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BMaker11 said:
DonFerrari said:
Funny people here criticizing he was upholding both Clinton before but now criticizes them. Yes, that is a complain most democrats did, so Trump is viewed as much more as a Democrat highjack than a true Republican.

And on scietinfic disbelief... leftwing push the "gender ideology" that is completely bogus but get applause, they deny economic knowledge and push for socialism and that is humanitarian, they go against freedoms but that is ok because they want our good.

I feel like you're talking about me but didn't feel the need to quote me, as if I wouldn't see this comment. Since I'm the only one in this thread mocking Trump for supporting the Clintons and then flip flopping on how he said Bill was a great president and Hillary was a great senator in order to get in the good graces of Republican voters. Also on left wing "denial" of science.

So, first off, do you have nothing to say about his flip flopping on Bill? He's always said that the economy was great under Clinton and that his presidency was a good one. Did 1992-2000 change once Trump was a Republican candidate, so now all those years are terrible? What made him change his years long stance other than to get Republicans to pick him? 

Trump lies and say what he need to get the votes, that is no news, and so did Hillary. Wasn't that quite the agreement here?

Secondly, "gender dysphoria" is an actual thing. It's scientifically studied. I, personally, don't "get it". But just because I don't get it doesn't mean it's "bogus". You're perpetuating the right wing "denial of science" when you say it's "bogus" even though the evidence is clear that it is a condition. So, try again on left wingers "denying science and evidence". 

No man, don't confuse transgender/genderbend with social construction of gender. I don't (and even science have a consensus) on why and how transex, gays and etc happens but they do and is undeniable. What I'm talking about is a woman not being a woman, but becoming a woman because of cultural oppresion and social construction. That is bullshit and tries to deny genes.

Lastly, "denying economic knowledge and push for socialism"? Is that a bad thing? First off, the US is already socialist. The police that protect you? That's a socialist program as it uses money from the collective to be used for public/common good or service. Those roads you drive on that are maintained throughout the year and the interstate that you hop on to get from A to B? That's a socialist program via DPWs and DOTs, which use money from the collective to be used for a public/common good or service. The majority of kids being able to get an affordable primary education instead of having to go to $15,000 year private schools? That's a socialist program via public education, which uses money from the collective to be used for a public/common good or service. That's all socialism is. But you're probably one of those people who get McCarthy era triggered by the S-word and think socialism is the government taking over everything......which is actually communism. Big difference. The kind of person that says the phrase "socialist communist" to describe someone who wants universal healthcare. 

Sure is, socialism and comunism is a bad thing and government overpowering and intervening is quite bad. And only if you are anarchocapitalist you would consider border safety, state police a form of socialism, but ok if you do. Yes I know the infraestructure is seldoomly used to be maintained by the government and usually with less efficiency than by private organizations (in Brazil you have quite the discrepancy between roads maintained by both). Public education could be a lot better by being offered through private schools, and if you decide to go on "they can't afford" I recommend you look at the voucher concept. I'm not even American or over 40 to be a McCarthy era person.

But more importantly, every industrialized western civilization is socialist. At least, the kind of "socialist" that you're afraid of. And, ironically enough, you talk about "going against freedoms", but many of those other countries have higher GPDs per capita than the US, many of them rank higher in the World Happiness Report than the US, many of them rank higher in the Heritage Economic Freedom Index than the US, many of them rank higher in the Cato Institute's Human Freedom Index than the US, etc. 

So Cuba, China, Venezuela, Laos, Camdodja, Half of Africa are top rankers? Or you are going for the fallacia that Sweden is socialist? Nope, they have free market, although very high taxes and looking at very deep problems at the moment.

Denying universal health care and basically telling people that if you're sick (something that happens naturally the majority of the time), you better be rich, otherwise you're doomed to either die or live in insurmountable debt......that is more "against freedom" than paying a little more in taxes so everybody has a better quality of life. In fact, you don't even have to increase taxes; just reprioritize them. But if you say "hey, maybe our military budget doesn't need to be bigger than the next 10 countries combined, most of which are allies" or "hey, maybe we shouldn't be sending out all this foreign aid to countries that do nothing for us", and instead want that money to be used to invest in the American people; then you're a lazy "socialist" who just wants a handout. As if such an important investment like as an education (which gives you better chance to be more financially stable) is a "handout". Like it's on par with an Xbox or cell phone or something.

You are making so much assumptions that it isn't even fun. One of the biggest reasons for healthcare being so expensive in USA is on government involvement that raise the price of the service because they will be paid anyway.

But if you want you can live in your world of assumptions and denying of economics and believe that it's all for the greater good.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
BMaker11 said:

1. Trump lies and say what he need to get the votes, that is no news, and so did Hillary. Wasn't that quite the agreement here?

2. No man, don't confuse transgender/genderbend with social construction of gender. I don't (and even science have a consensus) on why and how transex, gays and etc happens but they do and is undeniable. What I'm talking about is a woman not being a woman, but becoming a woman because of cultural oppresion and social construction. That is bullshit and tries to deny genes.

3. Sure is, socialism and comunism is a bad thing and government overpowering and intervening is quite bad. And only if you are anarchocapitalist you would consider border safety, state police a form of socialism, but ok if you do. Yes I know the infraestructure is seldoomly used to be maintained by the government and usually with less efficiency than by private organizations (in Brazil you have quite the discrepancy between roads maintained by both). Public education could be a lot better by being offered through private schools, and if you decide to go on "they can't afford" I recommend you look at the voucher concept. I'm not even American or over 40 to be a McCarthy era person.

4. So Cuba, China, Venezuela, Laos, Camdodja, Half of Africa are top rankers? Or you are going for the fallacia that Sweden is socialist? Nope, they have free market, although very high taxes and looking at very deep problems at the moment.

You are making so much assumptions that it isn't even fun. One of the biggest reasons for healthcare being so expensive in USA is on government involvement that raise the price of the service because they will be paid anyway.

But if you want you can live in your world of assumptions and denying of economics and believe that it's all for the greater good.

1. The problem with "Trump lies" is that he was pretty much a Democrat his whole life and sang nothing but their praises. But as soon as a black guy won, he latched on to the birther movement and then morphed into someone who hates Democrats. He didn't just lie, he did complete 180s. From "the economy does better under Democrats" and "Bill Clinton was a great president" and "at minimum, Hillary will be known as a great senator" to "Democrats ruin the economy" and "NAFTA was terrible and Bill Clinton is a rapist" and "Hillary hasn't done anything for 30 years". That's a lot different than "I was under sniper fire in Bosnia". 

2. I'll concede on that gender fluidity point. As I said, gender dysphoria is a thing, but people who think gender isn't a binary construct are nuts. 

3. I guess I'm an anarchocapitalist then. Why are all those things ok to use tax dollar for, but extending it to a college education isn't? It literally follows the same principle. Using tax dollars for a public good. You mention how education and infrastructure would be better handled by a private organization. Why not privatize the police? Our departments would be "better" then, right? And you don't need to be old to have socialism be a trigger word. The disdain for socialism was pushed by McCarthy and it's pervasive to this day. You've got 20 year old conservatives who hate it because their grandparents told their parents, who told them, about how terrible socialism is. 

4. Today I learned Cuba, China, Venezuela, Laos, Cambodia, and half of Africa were industrialized, western civilizations. FYI, Sweden follows the Nordic Model, which is a mix of capitalism and socialism, which is what most people who want "socialism" in the US advocate for. And has universal healthcare. And a I think Finland, another Nordic Model country, actually offers free college not just to its citizens, but to international students as well (but you still have to cover your own living expenses). Also, another FYI, Singapore, New Zealand, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Ireland, the UK, all rank higher than the US in economic freedom, with Lithuania and Denmark barely behind. All countries with advanced, industrialized economies; and all have the "socialism" that you say is bad. In fact, I think you specifically tried to undermine my point by mentioning Cuba, China, Venezuela, and Laos, which are all communist. You picked a bunch of shitty nations that didn't fit the description in any sort of way, then latched onto the "socialist communist" style of thinking, which I specifically called out, and in conflating the two economic systems, you now say "see, these countries are crap. Socialism = bad". 

Lastly, the reason that healthcare is so expensive isn't because of government interference. It's because it's a profit driven industry (when it shouldn't be). Couple that with the fact that everyone is susceptible to getting sick (i.e. health is not a luxury item like a car; it's something that affects everyone), yet not everyone can afford health insurance; when a poor person has that $200,000 surgery that they can't pay for or gets meds daily meds prescribed to them that they can't afford, the hospitals are still going to get their money, one way or another. So, that drives up the premium costs for those who do have insurance, which then, in turn, makes it even more unaffordable to less fortunate people. The government is only starting to intervene, now, because healthcare costs have run amuck. These are facts. 

I don't think at any point I've "denied economics". You, on the other hand, apparently, refuse to "accept economics" for models that work and benefit everyone in the society that such models are used. 



Where's this far-right? Why this text doesn't mention "left"? After all the sorry state the world has come to is thanks to the left. People are not xenophobic. People just don't want their countries full of people of another culture using trucks, guns and bombs to kill their families.



Not news.  From 2004: 
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
Wikipedia

Ignore the truth for long enough, and maybe it'll go away:  that is the mentality we are talking about.  Maybe it's a bigger problem than usual, but this isn't the first time it's happened. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

gigaSheik said:
Where's this far-right? Why this text doesn't mention "left"? After all the sorry state the world has come to is thanks to the left. People are not xenophobic. People just don't want their countries full of people of another culture using trucks, guns and bombs to kill their families.

You got it.  Terrorism is just like everything else:  buy domestic. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!