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Forums - Politics Discussion - Carrier just showed corporations how to beat Donald Trump

Machiavellian on 04 December 2016
AAA300 said:
bunchanumbers said:

I actually have no idea what most of those places you are talking about. All I gotta use is my own eyes. Trump lets a thousand jobs go. Trump brags about him saving a few.

Whee. There's that great america we've been waiting for.

I take it your a glass half empty type of person. If he had saved all the jobs  you and some of the blind people on this site would find something to complain about. Like why couldn't he get them raises or more vacation! You need to look at the big picture the jobs were gone!!!!!!! Trump saved 1100 jobs by negotiating with them before they moved permanently something OBAMA WASN'T GOING TO DO AND NEITHER WAS CLINTON! And as for him promoting this, its a good thing that he shows all Americans he's got there back and that he will work for the jobs we need. The leader of a nation needs to be a cheerleader for the country in order to install confidence to their people! So be happy for the people he's help.

AAA, here is the problem with this deal.  Its total PR.  Think about it for a minute.  Saving 1,000 jobs on a undisclosed deal where the President of the United states had a hand in the situation is silly.  The reason is that it’s not repeatable.  It’s not something he did with his policy that is a template for other corporations that is looking at their bottom line will keep such manufacturing jobs in the US.  The only way anyone sees this as Trump having American backs is if this is something that can be taken to the national stage not some one off deal that will never be done again.

If this turns out to be just a one off thing done just for clicks and PR then you have been duped.  Its feels just like the situation when Trump went to Louisiana during the flood.  People praised him for the gesture but when you step back you look at all the other floods, hurricanes, Tornados ect.  Where was Trump during those moments.  In other words, if this is something that Trump is willing to do because he really cares then it will be something that he continues to do.  It will not be some one off thing he does for PR.

The time for these type of games really is over.  Trump has won the white house so its go time.  PR Stunts is not what the people are looking for.  They are looking for his policies to do what he stated he will do.  I have a open mind so I am willing to see what he does but I really not interested in seeing Trump the salesman but instead seeing President Trump and see exactly how he will make America great.



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Machiavellian on 04 December 2016
Soundwave said:
mrstickball said:
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the Western world. Jobs get outsourced not (just) because its cheaper to hire/work in other nations, but because whatever they do make, gets taxed. Thus why corporate inversions and loopholes are so popular.

Hopefully he reduces the corporate tax rate to 15% as he promised. I would imagine quite a few scenarios where jobs come back to the US, and/or stay here instead of moving overseas.

I always love how people bemoan "The loss of tax dollars" because of deals/cuts made... Guess how many millions more get lost if 100% of the jobs leave? Tax breaks for businesses to locate to a specific area are always offset by the increase of income and other taxes.

Bottom line is people are willing to work for far less in other countries. Americans thumb their nose down at $8/hour. 

$8/hour gets your 4-5 workers in China, lol, and Americans expect paid medical, dental, paid vacation, etc. Not saying they're wrong to want that, but this is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. If you don't do it, then your competetion will do it, and now suddenly you are at an competitive disadvantage. 

Corporate tax rates and trade deals don't change the fact that you can make virtually any product cheaper any where than in America. 

The other problem -- automation is becoming cheaper than any workers at all. I've a robotic spot welder in a car factory for example costs $8/hour (averaged out) to function. To pay an actual worker to do that job is $25/hour and the robot can work 18-19-20 hours, etc. 

What you are describing is called a middle class.  Places like India where such work and factories were shipped out there now have developed a middle class and expected wages and benifits have gone up thus making jobs that use to be farmed out there go to Africa and China.  The key point is that the products produced by such factories are sold globally around the world and companies that make those products must compete with other companies that use cheap labor.  When all is said and done, the American econony is not going to raise or fall based on manufacturing jobs.  Those jobs will go to cheaper labor or automation and there is pretty much nothing to stop it from happening.  The ideal situation is that the American labor force matures further or develop new industries.  If anything we should be pouring a lot of our money into our education system so that even the poorest child graduates with a high education.



mrstickball on 04 December 2016
Soundwave said:
mrstickball said:
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the Western world. Jobs get outsourced not (just) because its cheaper to hire/work in other nations, but because whatever they do make, gets taxed. Thus why corporate inversions and loopholes are so popular.

Hopefully he reduces the corporate tax rate to 15% as he promised. I would imagine quite a few scenarios where jobs come back to the US, and/or stay here instead of moving overseas.

I always love how people bemoan "The loss of tax dollars" because of deals/cuts made... Guess how many millions more get lost if 100% of the jobs leave? Tax breaks for businesses to locate to a specific area are always offset by the increase of income and other taxes.

Bottom line is people are willing to work for far less in other countries. Americans thumb their nose down at $8/hour. 

$8/hour gets your 4-5 workers in China, lol, and Americans expect paid medical, dental, paid vacation, etc. Not saying they're wrong to want that, but this is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. If you don't do it, then your competetion will do it, and now suddenly you are at an competitive disadvantage. 

Corporate tax rates and trade deals don't change the fact that you can make virtually any product cheaper any where than in America. 

The other problem -- automation is becoming cheaper than any workers at all. I've a robotic spot welder in a car factory for example costs $8/hour (averaged out) to function. To pay an actual worker to do that job is $25/hour and the robot can work 18-19-20 hours, etc. 

And after awhile, wages go up so high in those areas, that they become untennable, and move elsewhere. China is now outsourcing to Vietnam, as its more expensive to hire a factory worker than a university graduate. 

Having said that, productivity and quality of work count for something. There's a reason that HVAC jobs from Carrier were going to Mexico, not China. Extremely high-end items still need western input into them. If you can at least improve cost of business some, you will stop at least some of the hemhoragging. At the moment, overhead on a US factory worker is >$15,000 annually. If you reduced some of that cost, you'd see fewer jobs lost over time. 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

konnichiwa on 05 December 2016
Soundwave said:
mrstickball said:
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the Western world. Jobs get outsourced not (just) because its cheaper to hire/work in other nations, but because whatever they do make, gets taxed. Thus why corporate inversions and loopholes are so popular.

Hopefully he reduces the corporate tax rate to 15% as he promised. I would imagine quite a few scenarios where jobs come back to the US, and/or stay here instead of moving overseas.

I always love how people bemoan "The loss of tax dollars" because of deals/cuts made... Guess how many millions more get lost if 100% of the jobs leave? Tax breaks for businesses to locate to a specific area are always offset by the increase of income and other taxes.

Bottom line is people are willing to work for far less in other countries. Americans thumb their nose down at $8/hour. 

$8/hour gets your 4-5 workers in China, lol, and Americans expect paid medical, dental, paid vacation, etc. Not saying they're wrong to want that, but this is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. If you don't do it, then your competetion will do it, and now suddenly you are at an competitive disadvantage. 

Corporate tax rates and trade deals don't change the fact that you can make virtually any product cheaper any where than in America. 

The other problem -- automation is becoming cheaper than any workers at all. I've a robotic spot welder in a car factory for example costs $8/hour (averaged out) to function. To pay an actual worker to do that job is $25/hour and the robot can work 18-19-20 hours, etc. 

It is not an other problem it is in fact the big main problem. I fear it a bit with how the politics are today but what is going to happen when people understand that their is a new group getting created (or getting bigger) that you can't call unemployed but unemployable.






konnichiwa on 05 December 2016

Interesting that this new graph came out