By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - What do you think would be the best outcome for the US Electoral College?

 

What result is best?

Trump maintains lead and is voted in. 99 54.40%
 
Clinton gains lead and is voted in. 37 20.33%
 
Both candidates are below... 46 25.27%
 
Total:182
Shadow1980 said:
AsGryffynn said:

*Rolls eyes*

 

And? So what if red counties cover more area geographically? I've seen these sorts of maps trotted out over the past 16 years with Republicans using them to say "Look how red America is!" It's a misleading map. Some remote county with less than 1000 people in it shouldn't count more on a per capita basis than a county with 100,000+ people, and Wyoming and Vermont voters shouldn't count for more than New York or Texas. Also, not all of those blue counties are urban, and not all the red ones are rural.

Also, your little map there doesn't address mine. 12 states, only one of them (New Hampshire) a small heavily-rural state, essentially determine the entire election. Candidates will never pay Wyoming any more attention than they do California, because they know how those states will end up on election day. The Electoral College means that only competitive states are going to get any attention in the lead up to the general election. Why is this acceptable? Why should Republican voters in deep blue states and Democratic voters in deep red states be absolutely worthless?

The writing's in the bloody war. Democratic Party voters have an advantage in population and it's a near permanent one. Make votations by popular vote the new thing and you might as well disband the GOP since it will never win urban voters like Dems will. 

The last person to do so was Ronald Reagan, and it was more because the Dems were all around considered useless and their candidate shite... 

As for why they should be worthless. These are solid states. Republicans will not espouse equality and start winning urban votes. Blue candidates will not promise to slash taxes and cripple federal legislation. The parties should be called the Urban and Mountain parties, because it's more appropriate. 

 

Or in speakeasy, parties cannot win deep red and blue states, hence why they don't bother and their only hope seems to be represented by battleground states as battleground state voters are not aligned with either party. 



Around the Network
Shadow1980 said:
AsGryffynn said:

The writing's in the bloody war. Democratic Party voters have an advantage in population and it's a near permanent one. Make votations by popular vote the new thing and you might as well disband the GOP since it will never win urban voters like Dems will. 

The last person to do so was Ronald Reagan, and it was more because the Dems were all around considered useless and their candidate shite... 

As for why they should be worthless. These are solid states. Republicans will not espouse equality and start winning urban votes. Blue candidates will not promise to slash taxes and cripple federal legislation. The parties should be called the Urban and Mountain parties, because it's more appropriate. 

 

Or in speakeasy, parties cannot win deep red and blue states, hence why they don't bother and their only hope seems to be represented by battleground states as battleground state voters are not aligned with either party. 

As I pointed out before, George W. Bush won the popular vote in 2004 by a 3 million vote/2.5 percentage point margin. It's also possible that Kasich could have beaten Hillary by a significant margin. Republicans also win gubernatorial and Senate races in traditionally Democratic states all the time; Massachusetts, Illinois, and New Jersey are all deep blue states with GOP governors, and New York and California had Republican governors not so long ago. The converse of this is true as well; Democrats win in deep red states as well. But they didn't get those wins by being hyperpartisan ideologues.

So don't pretend that Republicans are somehow unable to win the national popular vote anymore. It's a matter of fielding the right candidate. Bush won the popular vote in 2004 at least in part because he did better with Latino voters than any other presidential candidate in the past 40 years. He got 44% of the Latino vote that year according to exit polls, whereas Trump only got 28% of the Latino vote. Had the Latino vote split like it did in 2004, Trump would have won the popular vote. But he wasn't popular with Latinos. Kasich, Bush, Rubio, and Cruz would have done a lot better among Latinos based on approval rating polls.

I've also pointed out that urban areas are not ideological monoliths. 80% of the population lives in urban areas, but while urban centers tend to favor Democrat the suburbs tend to slightly favor Republicans. Rural voters tend to favor Republicans, too, and by a heavy margin, enough to offset the edge Democrats have in urban centers. As demographics change in the future, so will party platforms and campaigning strategies, but there's no reason to think that just because the country has become more urbanized over time it means that Democrats will permanently hold on to the White House one day. The issues of the day our country faces decades from now will not be the exact same issues we face today, any more than the issues we face today are the same ones our grandparents or their grandparents faced. Voting habits change. The Democrats were once a mostly agrarian party centered in the South, while the Republicans were a more activist big-government party centered in the North. But parties change over time. The entire notion of an almost entirely binary "liberal Democrat" and "conservative Republican" is a relatively recent one that didn't start to materialize until some time in the mid to late 60s and didn't really crystallize until the 80s & 90s. Our ancestors from 100 years ago would be utterly puzzled by today's party dynamics, and our descendants will in 100 years look back on our party dynamics and note how different things used to be in the early 21st century. Republicans could and would eventually retake the White House even if we did have a national popular vote system. It's just a matter of adapting to changing political realities.

I also pointed out that in a popular vote system candidates don't win states anymore. They win individual votes across the country. That state-by-state winner-take-all business would no longer exist. Therefore, it would be incumbent on the Republican candidate to get more Republican voters in all 50 states to turn out on election day. Republican voters in states like California and New York would actually matter, as I've stated repeatedly, and they'd have more reason to show up on election day. Same for Democratic voters in mostly Republican states.

Again, there is literally no practical reason to retain the Electoral College. It is not a beneficial system. It is the only system of its kind in democracies with a full presidential system. But just because it's "our system" doesn't make it a good system or a desirable system. But some of us convince ourselves that the nominal reasons it exists are good reasons in spite of all evidence to the contrary. It has done nothing good for this country.

Oh sure, but Bush didn't the first time around... Then there's how his ratings were bolstered by the WTC attacks. As for the reason on them winning on the lower levels, it highlights how a race at the top level isn't like races at the lower level. 

Not once did I mention it was inconceivable for them to win the popular vote, but to be honest, it's no longer a realistic scenario anymore. Odd on some notions of democracy, but this system has more flaws than what you think. The vote of people might work in the future IF and only IF both the GOP and Dems were no more. The bipartisan system, as it is, will ensure few votes change anyway because they've had years to firmly entrench themselves. Nothing will change in the long term without all around reform. 

Perhaps if the US didn't work like the European Union as a country, it'd work better. 



pokoko said:
BVick said:

lol no it doesnt. They call it the "blue wall" for a reason. 

lol. That's just a bullshit political scapegoat term, same as "red wall", which people parrot because they can't build their own arguments.  lol.  Tell me, instead, how many recent Republican Presidents have won the Electoral College but not the popular vote?  lol.  Okay, now tell me how many recent Democrat Presidents have won the Electoral College but not the popular vote? lol.  There is your answer.  lol.

lol.

You would be right about it being a "bullshit politcial scapegoat term"... if people said "red wall" but they dont. Dems always have the advantage in the electorial collage because the US has become more liberal over the years, in metro areas especially. Lets face it though. we wouldnt be having this convertion if the results were reversed. People would only say "You need to accept the results of the election". Like everyone should be doing.  



BVick said:
pokoko said:

lol. That's just a bullshit political scapegoat term, same as "red wall", which people parrot because they can't build their own arguments.  lol.  Tell me, instead, how many recent Republican Presidents have won the Electoral College but not the popular vote?  lol.  Okay, now tell me how many recent Democrat Presidents have won the Electoral College but not the popular vote? lol.  There is your answer.  lol.

lol.

You would be right about it being a "bullshit politcial scapegoat term"... if people said "red wall" but they dont. Dems always have the advantage in the electorial collage because the US has become more liberal over the years, in metro areas especially. Lets face it though. we wouldnt be having this convertion if the results were reversed. People would only say "You need to accept the results of the election". Like everyone should be doing.  

I don't care "what people say".  The simple fact is that both sides have a collection of states they don't have to worry about.  If this "blue wall" is such an advantage for the democrats then why have 4 of the last 6 winners of the electoral college been republicans?  Why is it such an advantage when 2 of those republican electoral college winners lost the popular vote?

You're telling me that it's an advantage when they would have won more if we did not use the electoral college system?  That doesn't make any sense.  Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate that democrats stayed home in droves to avoid voting for, yet she still won the popular vote.  The raw numbers favor the democrats and the republicans know it.  There is no way that they think they'd have a better chance at the White House in a popular vote format.

As for the conversation, we'd be having it either way.  Both parties are full of people who look for whatever advantage they can get and whatever excuses they can find.  You have only to look at the practice of gerrymandering to realize that neither party gives a rat's ass about waging a fair or honest fight.  The simple truth is that whomever is on top is not going to change the rules that helped get them on top.