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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump supporters finally realizing they've been conned

Insidb said:

Firstly, you do understand that "liquidation" doesn't mean that the assets are magically converted into cash, right? A REIT could take them off his hands quite easily, at value. We are also in a buyers market in NY, even though it defies traidional real estate principles: cap rates are currently exceeded by interest rates. Essentially, your belief in him taking losses is completely unfounded.

Secondly, the whole point of the blind trust is to ELIMINATE POTENTIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST. It's not to REDUCE them: he works for the US citizenry; if he didn't want that, he should not have run for office. His Russian financial connections are significant and problematic, and he's not even in office yet.

Thirdly, statistics show that wealthier people are less moral and more likely to abuse wealth. There's a reason why so many "great" founders ended up in debt: commitment to the nation, not personal enrichment. 

What you described isn't a "true" blind trust which absolutely requires turning your assets into cash. It's just stupid to force Trump's business into a blind trust no matter what since there's almost no one who would amass billions in such a short time to buy his empire so he'd essentially have to hold a fire sale for most of his assets ... 

Not the whole Trump and Russia conspiracy theory again ... (This alone should disqualify your premise of the arugment.) 

Well, at least wealthier people are less likely to commit crimes ...

Being in debt is NOT a good thing because you're now beholden to your creditors which raises conflicts of interests ... (It's like a caricature of china would say, "if you can't enslave entities with force, you can enslave them with debt". The american people are going to be so pissed when they find out their government can't pay back their debt.) 



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fatslob-:O said:

What you described isn't a "true" blind trust which absolutely requires turning your assets into cash. It's just stupid to force Trump's business into a blind trust no matter what since there's almost no one who would amass billions in such a short time to buy his empire so he'd essentially have to hold a fire sale for most of his assets ... 

Not the whole Trump and Russia conspiracy theory again ... (This alone should disqualify your premise of the arugment.) 

Well, at least wealthier people are less likely to commit crimes ...

Being in debt is NOT a good thing because you're now beholden to your creditors which raises conflicts of interests ... (It's like a caricature of china would say, "if you can't enslave entities with force, you can enslave them with debt". The american people are going to be so pissed when they find out their government can't pay back their debt.) 

A REIT or a partnership could and would buy the assets; he would then be compensated through the financing deal, through which he would have no material interest in the performance of the original asset. The "fire sale" aspect betrays an unfamilairity with the NY RE market, and other assets could easilt be collateralized into an SPV and sold to any of the potential aforementioned. If any assets were sold at a loss, I would suspect they are currently overvalued (which is and has been his wont). Finally, his total net worth is only about $4B, which is not substantial and not wholly comprised of his RE portfolio. SL Green, for context is worth $10.6B and is comprised wholly of its RE portfolio.

The Russia thing is not a conspiracy theory; I addressed this elsewhere, but I actually built the Trump Soho, work with his business associates, and have been the NY RE and financial industries for about 10 years now. The question is not if the conflict of interest exists; it's to what degree does it exist. Also, it takes only a little bit of research to corroborate these ties, and someone else has already done so in this very thread.

There are many studies like this, and they behoove you to decouple criminal behavior from criminal prosecution: 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/201304/the-rich-are-differently-moral

The founding fathers almost universally ended up in debt, because they were not out to enrish themselves. The office of the presidency pays $500K/year, which is 10 times the median household income in the US. Post-presidency, most presidents can make that amount for an hour or two of speaking. As far as indebtedness is concerned here, you should be more concerned about who has invested with Trump (including PACs) and what they expect of him or (worse yet) what he owes them: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/us/politics/donald-trump-international-business.html



Insidb said:

A REIT or a partnership could and would buy the assets; he would then be compensated through the financing deal, through which he would have no material interest in the performance of the original asset. The "fire sale" aspect betrays an unfamilairity with the NY RE market, and other assets could easilt be collateralized into an SPV and sold to any of the potential aforementioned. If any assets were sold at a loss, I would suspect they are currently overvalued (which is and has been his wont). Finally, his total net worth is only about $4B, which is not substantial and not wholly comprised of his RE portfolio. SL Green, for context is worth $10.6B and is comprised wholly of its RE portfolio.

The Russia thing is not a conspiracy theory; I addressed this elsewhere, but I actually built the Trump Soho, work with his business associates, and have been the NY RE and financial industries for about 10 years now. The question is not if the conflict of interest exists; it's to what degree does it exist. Also, it takes only a little bit of research to corroborate these ties, and someone else has already done so in this very thread.

There are many studies like this, and they behoove you to decouple criminal behavior from criminal prosecution: 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/201304/the-rich-are-differently-moral

The founding fathers almost universally ended up in debt, because they were not out to enrish themselves. The office of the presidency pays $500K/year, which is 10 times the median household income in the US. Post-presidency, most presidents can make that amount for an hour or two of speaking. As far as indebtedness is concerned here, you should be more concerned about who has invested with Trump (including PACs) and what they expect of him or (worse yet) what he owes them: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/us/politics/donald-trump-international-business.html

There are very few REIT's who could immediately absorb 3+ billion dollars in terms of real estate assets alone and the companies that can are usually much larger. There are very few as it is that can buy Trump's real estate empire but there's even fewer among those want to buy his property specifically ... 

You work with Trump's partners ? I've done tons of research already and I haven't got a single clue of where his financial ties with Russia lies and even after fine-tooth combing his financial disclosure form, I couldn't see any assets located from Russia or liabilities listed by Russian specific creditors so that is why I'm almost certain that the Trump and the Russia connection is mostly a conspiracy theory ... (Not even the FBI found any links between Trump and Russia! If Trump does have russian connections then he must be very good at hiding it otherwise I don't see it.)

Trump's business is indebted to a bunch of private corporations but I don't think they were betting him to win the presidency like most markets did so what Trump owes is cash and not his ears so I'm not worried right now ... 

A president should NEVER have to be in negative equity otherwise their creditor's obligations will get in the way of governance. Equity represents an individual's power and having less of it is NOT ideal for ANYONE no matter what ...



fatslob-:O said:

There are very few REIT's who could immediately absorb 3+ billion dollars in terms of real estate assets alone and the companies that can are usually much larger. There are very few as it is that can buy Trump's real estate empire but there's even fewer among those want to buy his property specifically ... 

You work with Trump's partners ? I've done tons of research already and I haven't got a single clue of where his financial ties with Russia lies and even after fine-tooth combing his financial disclosure form, I couldn't see any assets located from Russia or liabilities listed by Russian specific creditors so that is why I'm almost certain that the Trump and the Russia connection is mostly a conspiracy theory ... (Not even the FBI found any links between Trump and Russia! If Trump does have russian connections then he must be very good at hiding it otherwise I don't see it.)

Trump's business is indebted to a bunch of private corporations but I don't think they were betting him to win the presidency like most markets did so what Trump owes is cash and not his ears so I'm not worried right now ... 

A president should NEVER have to be in negative equity otherwise their creditor's obligations will get in the way of governance. Equity represents an individual's power and having less of it is NOT ideal for ANYONE no matter what ...

The question is not purchasing power: Chinese investors spend more than his entire portfolio on NY RE annually (They've blown past the Russians of late, thanks to Putin's consolidation of the oligarchs.), and a one buyer scenario is possibly, but not likely.. Whether or not people want to buy it is a testament to his supposed business savvy; that's a fair question to raise, which would probably rustle quite a few skeletons in his closets.

This is real: 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2016/10/03/donald-trump-and-the-felon-inside-his-business-dealings-with-a-mob-connected-hustler/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

If Trump's business enterprise is indebted to banks, that inherently contradicts your assetion about presidents and indebtedness. It's also signifcantly more complicated than that, because he owes them returns on current deals, payments on financing deals, and likely payouts on debt relief deals (The latter two can be interrelated.). Couple that with the expectation of hrowing his enterprise, through the same lenders, and we have many potential conflicts.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Ulyssess Grant, Harry Truman , and others were debt-ridden presidents, so I think character goes a lot further than being independently wealthy. It's why I would trust Bloomberg and not Trump: the former took no salary and dumped millions into the city hall; the latter said that he will take no salary and is charging teh secret service 1MM+/year to rent out his building.

If I haven't clarified this earlier, I am not pro-Clinton (too many similarities to Trump).



You know what else we will still have after Trump is done 'fulfilling his promises'? Even though he said he will repeal and replace Obamacare, there will still be Doctors and hospitals. That give medical care to people. Out of the 1000's of changes to healthcare done by the ACA, keeping 2 makes him break his promise according to the MSM and the Trump detractors. Same with the 'wall'. Some parts will be a barrier other than 30 feet of bricks stacked up, but according to CNN if you can see through it, he broke a promise. AND of course he isn't in charge of prosecuting criminals or bringing charges on Hillary. Other parts of the Gov are involved with that process. The Prez doesn't actually have handcuffs on his belt...



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Insidb said:

The question is not purchasing power: Chinese investors spend more than his entire portfolio on NY RE annually (They've blown past the Russians of late, thanks to Putin's consolidation of the oligarchs.), and a one buyer scenario is possibly, but not likely.. Whether or not people want to buy it is a testament to his supposed business savvy; that's a fair question to raise, which would probably rustle quite a few skeletons in his closets.

This is real: 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2016/10/03/donald-trump-and-the-felon-inside-his-business-dealings-with-a-mob-connected-hustler/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

If Trump's business enterprise is indebted to banks, that inherently contradicts your assetion about presidents and indebtedness. It's also signifcantly more complicated than that, because he owes them returns on current deals, payments on financing deals, and likely payouts on debt relief deals (The latter two can be interrelated.). Couple that with the expectation of hrowing his enterprise, through the same lenders, and we have many potential conflicts.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Ulyssess Grant, Harry Truman , and others were debt-ridden presidents, so I think character goes a lot further than being independently wealthy. It's why I would trust Bloomberg and not Trump: the former took no salary and dumped millions into the city hall; the latter said that he will take no salary and is charging teh secret service 1MM+/year to rent out his building.

If I haven't clarified this earlier, I am not pro-Clinton (too many similarities to Trump).

What you linked to me says that Felix Sater is connected Donald Trump, it raises no coincidence about his russian origins ... (You're going to have to try harder than that to show that Trump actually has connections to high level officials or high profile russians.) 

I NEVER said presidents shouldn't be in debt, it's that no one should NEVER have negative equity ... (Really bad idea to be debt-ridden since compromises have to be made in desperate scenarios.) 

Listing golden examples doesn't really help your case and Ulysses Grant wasn't exactly a great president if you take a look at the rankings but there are others too like William Henry Harrison who were downright horrible along with his VP pick ... 

It's also the secret services choice as to how they want to spend their money ... 



fatslob-:O said:

What you linked to me says that Felix Sater is connected Donald Trump, it raises no coincidence about his russian origins ... (You're going to have to try harder than that to show that Trump actually has connections to high level officials or high profile russians.) 

I NEVER said presidents shouldn't be in debt, it's that no one should NEVER have negative equity ... (Really bad idea to be debt-ridden since compromises have to be made in desperate scenarios.) 

Listing golden examples doesn't really help your case and Ulysses Grant wasn't exactly a great president if you take a look at the rankings but there are others too like William Henry Harrison who were downright horrible along with his VP pick ... 

It's also the secret services choice as to how they want to spend their money ... 

Sater works 2 floors below Trump (in his building), and the article covered quite a bit of those connections. Since you won't do the Google search yourself:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/former-mafia-linked-figure-describes-association-with-trump/2016/05/17/cec6c2c6-16d3-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html?utm_term=.9d8f7153c6df

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-dealt-with-a-series-of-people-who-had-mob-ties-1472736922

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/06/donald_trump_and_felix_sater_felon.html

http://nypost.com/2013/04/01/suit-hits-rip-off-snitches/

http://www.deepcapture.com/2009/02/bernard-madoff-the-mafia-and-the-friends-of-michael-milken/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/exclusive-russian-mob-linked-fraudster-a-key-player-in-donald-tr/

http://billmoyers.com/story/donald-trump-story-youre-not-hearing/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Sater

Yes, they have and continue to work closely together. His connections are known and fairly apparent. Putin has his thumb on the oligarchs and mob bosses, as evidenced by the recent die-off and consolidation and stifling of foreign investment (This part has been particularly unsettling.). As I said before, this is all very disconcerting, but I pull up before I say that he is definitely the Kremlin Candidate. The groundwork for it has been laid.

My point is simply that it has not been uncommon (~16% of Presidents were in debt.) and has not led to terrible presidencies. those weren't "golden examples;" they were practically all of them. Calling out Harrison is funny, because he was president for one month lol. He's definitely an outlier, in many aspects. Bottom line: I'm glad you agree that your logic circled back on itself and ultimately agrees with me, so we don't have to revisit the debt conversation again.

"It's also the secret services choice as to how they want to spend their money ... " Really, man? What are they going to do, live on the Upper East Side or in the Meatpacking District? When the president is in the White House (normal), they live there, on government property. Trying to say that anyone other than Trump is responsible for this cost is being an apologist.



Insidb said:

Sater works 2 floors below Trump (in his building), and the article covered quite a bit of those connections. Since you won't do the Google search yourself:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/former-mafia-linked-figure-describes-association-with-trump/2016/05/17/cec6c2c6-16d3-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html?utm_term=.9d8f7153c6df

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-dealt-with-a-series-of-people-who-had-mob-ties-1472736922

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/06/donald_trump_and_felix_sater_felon.html

http://nypost.com/2013/04/01/suit-hits-rip-off-snitches/

http://www.deepcapture.com/2009/02/bernard-madoff-the-mafia-and-the-friends-of-michael-milken/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/exclusive-russian-mob-linked-fraudster-a-key-player-in-donald-tr/

http://billmoyers.com/story/donald-trump-story-youre-not-hearing/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Sater

Yes, they have and continue to work closely together. His connections are known and fairly apparent. Putin has his thumb on the oligarchs and mob bosses, as evidenced by the recent die-off and consolidation and stifling of foreign investment (This part has been particularly unsettling.). As I said before, this is all very disconcerting, but I pull up before I say that he is definitely the Kremlin Candidate. The groundwork for it has been laid.

My point is simply that it has not been uncommon (~16% of Presidents were in debt.) and has not led to terrible presidencies. those weren't "golden examples;" they were practically all of them. Calling out Harrison is funny, because he was president for one month lol. He's definitely an outlier, in many aspects. Bottom line: I'm glad you agree that your logic circled back on itself and ultimately agrees with me, so we don't have to revisit the debt conversation again.

"It's also the secret services choice as to how they want to spend their money ... " Really, man? What are they going to do, live on the Upper East Side or in the Meatpacking District? When the president is in the White House (normal), they live there, on government property. Trying to say that anyone other than Trump is responsible for this cost is being an apologist.

You're going to need more than just Felix Sater and his controversies to prove that Trump has any direct links with Russia itself. Good on proving that Felix Sater is somewhat connected to Russia but your assertion that Trump being connected to Russia is still very much a conspiracy on the level of what Alex Jones spouts ... (You say you're not pro-Clinton but you're willing to believe their propaganda in that Trump is somehow the Kremlin candidate ? LOL) 

16% is an uncommon figure, it's not 40% or 50% or even 30% where one would define that to be a common figure. (It's now 13% once Trump is counted in.) Did George Washington even have a debt problem ? (I've researched this and I haven't came up with anything saying so. He didn't have much cash but he had lot's of land.) Case in point most of the top 10 presidents weren't debt-ridden like you made it out to be so no we still need to revisit the debt convseration seeing as I still didn't concede to your point ...

Yes, really man. How Secret Service decides to spend their money is their issue and just because you work for the government doesn't mean you should get any special deals as their paying customers like the rest of the citizens ... 



fatslob-:O said:
Insidb said:

Sater works 2 floors below Trump (in his building), and the article covered quite a bit of those connections. Since you won't do the Google search yourself:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/former-mafia-linked-figure-describes-association-with-trump/2016/05/17/cec6c2c6-16d3-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html?utm_term=.9d8f7153c6df

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-dealt-with-a-series-of-people-who-had-mob-ties-1472736922

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/04/06/donald_trump_and_felix_sater_felon.html

http://nypost.com/2013/04/01/suit-hits-rip-off-snitches/

http://www.deepcapture.com/2009/02/bernard-madoff-the-mafia-and-the-friends-of-michael-milken/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/exclusive-russian-mob-linked-fraudster-a-key-player-in-donald-tr/

http://billmoyers.com/story/donald-trump-story-youre-not-hearing/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Sater

Yes, they have and continue to work closely together. His connections are known and fairly apparent. Putin has his thumb on the oligarchs and mob bosses, as evidenced by the recent die-off and consolidation and stifling of foreign investment (This part has been particularly unsettling.). As I said before, this is all very disconcerting, but I pull up before I say that he is definitely the Kremlin Candidate. The groundwork for it has been laid.

My point is simply that it has not been uncommon (~16% of Presidents were in debt.) and has not led to terrible presidencies. those weren't "golden examples;" they were practically all of them. Calling out Harrison is funny, because he was president for one month lol. He's definitely an outlier, in many aspects. Bottom line: I'm glad you agree that your logic circled back on itself and ultimately agrees with me, so we don't have to revisit the debt conversation again.

"It's also the secret services choice as to how they want to spend their money ... " Really, man? What are they going to do, live on the Upper East Side or in the Meatpacking District? When the president is in the White House (normal), they live there, on government property. Trying to say that anyone other than Trump is responsible for this cost is being an apologist.

You're going to need more than just Felix Sater and his controversies to prove that Trump has any direct links with Russia itself. Good on proving that Felix Sater is somewhat connected to Russia but your assertion that Trump being connected to Russia is still very much a conspiracy on the level of what Alex Jones spouts ... (You say you're not pro-Clinton but you're willing to believe their propaganda in that Trump is somehow the Kremlin candidate ? LOL) 

16% is an uncommon figure, it's not 40% or 50% or even 30% where one would define that to be a common figure. (It's now 13% once Trump is counted in.) Did George Washington even have a debt problem ? (I've researched this and I haven't came up with anything saying so. He didn't have much cash but he had lot's of land.) Case in point most of the top 10 presidents weren't debt-ridden like you made it out to be so no we still need to revisit the debt convseration seeing as I still didn't concede to your point ...

Yes, really man. How Secret Service decides to spend their money is their issue and just because you work for the government doesn't mean you should get any special deals as their paying customers like the rest of the citizens ... 

1) Dude, read. I quoted you, and now everyone can see that you're making claims on my behalf that I never did.

2) Lincoln, Washington (Dude, Google.), Jefferson, and Truman are ranked as 4 of the top 10 and 3 of the top 5 presidents. That translates to 40% of the top 10 or 60% of the top 5 presidents having debt problems. Thanks for pointing out just how common it is to have a best of all time president being debt-ridden. 

3) The secret service doesn't have the responsibility of protecting the president? So you mean that they don't have to be in his vicinity at all times? Essentially, they can live nowhere near the president, because that happens never times. By choosing where to live, Trump is forcing them to spend money to be nearby (in his tower, where he is). That rent is in addition the extra security detail and cost burden (at the heliports, airports, tunnels, bridges, roads, etc.); we're already dealing with this here, and it's imposing. He chose this, he caused this, and it is happening because of him.

4) If anyone else reads this, please feel free to read the links I posted; they answer most of the "questions" being raised here.



Insidb said:

1) Dude, read. I quoted you, and now everyone can see that you're making claims on my behalf that I never did.

2) Lincoln, Washington (Dude, Google.), Jefferson, and Truman are ranked as 4 of the top 10 and 3 of the top 5 presidents. That translates to 40% of the top 10 or 60% of the top 5 presidents having debt problems. Thanks for pointing out just how common it is to have a best of all time president being debt-ridden. 

3) The secret service doesn't have the responsibility of protecting the president? So you mean that they don't have to be in his vicinity at all times? Essentially, they can live nowhere near the president, because that happens never times. By choosing where to live, Trump is forcing them to spend money to be nearby (in his tower, where he is). That rent is in addition the extra security detail and cost burden (at the heliports, airports, tunnels, bridges, roads, etc.); we're already dealing with this here, and it's imposing. He chose this, he caused this, and it is happening because of him.

4) If anyone else reads this, please feel free to read the links I posted; they answer most of the "questions" being raised here.

1) Why should I when most of these accusations are lead against Felix Sater ? When are you going to give actual evidence that shows a direct link between Trump and Russia ? You're literally teetering near a conspiracy theory and I don't like that ... 

2) I did google and coincidentally I didn't find much other than that he owned thousands of acres of land and a few dozen slaves. Not someone who you would exactly call "poor" ... (So maybe 3 out of 10 presidents were good even if debt-ridden ? CNBC thinks Washington is worth over 500 million and over 200 million for Jefferson so I'm not sure where the idea of the founding fathers being poor is perpetuated.) 

3) The reason why the Secret Service are renting out Trump's buildings is out of convenience, not requirement. They can choose to stay at Four Seasons Hotel which is just a block away meaning transitions in security shifts could be made just as quickly but for some reason they opted in to rent a few places at Trump Tower ...