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Forums - Gaming Discussion - PS4 Pro: Is It A 8.4tf Beast? (NX Gamer)

DonFerrari on 10 November 2016
walsufnir said:
HollyGamer said:

So then why console exist on the first place, if my PC can be optimize using direct x12 ??? 

Well, first of all, Xboxes always had a *variant* of DX - it always was in large compatible but in crucial parts gave more power to the devs while not breaking the usual and well-known development environment.

Second, think for a bit: If it was true that you can't optimize on Xbox, what does that tell you about untapped power on the 360? The system would've been even more powerful than it ever was, only crippled by an API and still managed to outdo the PS3 on numerous games. Do you actually believe that?

PC optimization is a different thing of course but DX12 gives developers way more control than they ever had before, just like Vulkan now also does. Do you think that MS and the OpenGL group invent new APIs just for marketing reasons?

And the question why console if PC can also optimize: Do you think the only reason why consoles exist is because PC games are not optimized because of their "not to metal"-APIs?

 

Wasulfunir you realize it's uncompatible to say something like a middleware is easier to use and close to metal right? The abstraction from DirectX already puts one layer and make it a little less efficient than not having DX

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
DonFerrari on 10 November 2016
walsufnir said:
HollyGamer said:

1st its true they had many variant "if they have to develope games entire new and exclusives "

2nd it's true they Xbox 360 can be optimize but it's not close to the metal and it's shows on why PS3 games on last gen showes it better on exclusives and better on their second update (few years before ps4 release) 

3rd MS invest direct x12 because windows use direct x12 and vulcan as well (futyre windows will use this ) 

4rth The reason Console exist ofcourse not just for the optimization but because of exclusive but for now Xbox games exclusive coming to PC so it beat it's purpose 

So in the end the 360 was a more powerful machine, only crippled by DirectX. You learn something new every day...

And no, people choosing a console over a PC has way more to do than just exclusives. This is also contradicted by the fact that exclusives get outsold by 3rd party games by big numbers when we leave Nintendo out. Ease of use, for example, is another big argument.

 

Yes, the GPU was considerably stronger and the unified memory pool was a better solution

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

walsufnir on 10 November 2016
DonFerrari said:
walsufnir said:

Well, first of all, Xboxes always had a *variant* of DX - it always was in large compatible but in crucial parts gave more power to the devs while not breaking the usual and well-known development environment.

Second, think for a bit: If it was true that you can't optimize on Xbox, what does that tell you about untapped power on the 360? The system would've been even more powerful than it ever was, only crippled by an API and still managed to outdo the PS3 on numerous games. Do you actually believe that?

PC optimization is a different thing of course but DX12 gives developers way more control than they ever had before, just like Vulkan now also does. Do you think that MS and the OpenGL group invent new APIs just for marketing reasons?

And the question why console if PC can also optimize: Do you think the only reason why consoles exist is because PC games are not optimized because of their "not to metal"-APIs?

 

Wasulfunir you realize it's uncompatible to say something like a middleware is easier to use and close to metal right? The abstraction from DirectX already puts one layer and make it a little less efficient than not having DX

? Every API is an abstraction layer. No matter if you call it DX, GNM, GNMX or Vulkan so either you say that every console has this disadvantage or no console has that.



Chevinator123 on 10 November 2016

Noped out halfway through. Way too hard for me to understand :)



DonFerrari on 10 November 2016
walsufnir said:
DonFerrari said:

 

Wasulfunir you realize it's uncompatible to say something like a middleware is easier to use and close to metal right? The abstraction from DirectX already puts one layer and make it a little less efficient than not having DX

? Every API is an abstraction layer. No matter if you call it DX, GNM, GNMX or Vulkan so either you say that every console has this disadvantage or no console has that.

 

From what we learnt from ND, the Development environment of PS3 allowed for basically direct coding instead of using middleware

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
walsufnir on 10 November 2016
DonFerrari said:
walsufnir said:

? Every API is an abstraction layer. No matter if you call it DX, GNM, GNMX or Vulkan so either you say that every console has this disadvantage or no console has that.

 

From what we learnt from ND, the Development environment of PS3 allowed for basically direct coding instead of using middleware

This applies to both consoles last gen and this gen. You are allowed to use inline-assembly as you wish as you are allowed to use the high-level APIs.



DonFerrari on 10 November 2016
walsufnir said:
DonFerrari said:

 

From what we learnt from ND, the Development environment of PS3 allowed for basically direct coding instead of using middleware

This applies to both consoles last gen and this gen. You are allowed to use inline-assembly as you wish as you are allowed to use the high-level APIs.

 

But not when you use DX12 as far as I know.

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

walsufnir on 10 November 2016
DonFerrari said:
walsufnir said:

This applies to both consoles last gen and this gen. You are allowed to use inline-assembly as you wish as you are allowed to use the high-level APIs.

 

But not when you use DX12 as far as I know.

 

As a PC programmer, you are free to do that, too. DX12 gives you the power on driver level access to the GPU. But you have to do a lot of stuff manually, of course. And to refer to the older parts of the discussion, on Xbox One you have a variant of DX12 running but more specialized built to the console hardware itself because you know what's in.

What do you guess where the benefits of DX12, Vulkan/Mantle come/came from?



DonFerrari on 10 November 2016
walsufnir said:
DonFerrari said:

 

But not when you use DX12 as far as I know.

 

As a PC programmer, you are free to do that, too. DX12 gives you the power on driver level access to the GPU. But you have to do a lot of stuff manually, of course. And to refer to the older parts of the discussion, on Xbox One you have a variant of DX12 running but more specialized built to the console hardware itself because you know what's in.

What do you guess where the benefits of DX12, Vulkan/Mantle come/came from?

 

Same place, but still one or more layers above the totally specified code you would use as a Sony 1st party studio on PS3 and now on PS4 and Pro.

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

walsufnir on 10 November 2016
DonFerrari said:
walsufnir said:

 

As a PC programmer, you are free to do that, too. DX12 gives you the power on driver level access to the GPU. But you have to do a lot of stuff manually, of course. And to refer to the older parts of the discussion, on Xbox One you have a variant of DX12 running but more specialized built to the console hardware itself because you know what's in.

What do you guess where the benefits of DX12, Vulkan/Mantle come/came from?

 

Same place, but still one or more layers above the totally specified code you would use as a Sony 1st party studio on PS3 and now on PS4 and Pro.

But where are these layers specifically? What are they? Where do you think the Xbox DX has more abstraction than the one for Sony and why?