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Forums - Gaming Discussion - This Black Friday is going to murder my hard drive. How about you?

 

Are you hyped for Black Friday or is your system hurting

hyped 18 46.15%
 
hurting 5 12.82%
 
I dont wait for deals on black friay 16 41.03%
 
Total:39
WagnerPaiva said:
I just finished Spider Man 2 on PS4 today. As soon as I watched the end of the game I deleted the file. This is how much space I have in my PS4, I can not install a game without deleting another 2 or 3 =(

Yep, especially when one game is the size of multiple next gen titles.



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exdeath said:
Ganoncrotch said:

You seem upset about HDDs but yeah... been a long time since the transfer rates from HDDs were in the KB range... I mean well they are in the 100k KB range but still, you might want to look at upgrading from whatever it is you are using for KB/S speeds.

Random seeks will drop your spindles to kilobytes speeds.

If you are encountering this sort of read rate while actually using the drive in your machine, you need to defragment it... I thought windows even did this on a weekly basis now as long as you aren't still running Windows XP or something? But yeah, there is no chance in hell that a 50gb game like GTA5 is going to be relying on Random seeks for data... just... no.



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Ganoncrotch said:
exdeath said:

Random seeks will drop your spindles to kilobytes speeds.

If you are encountering this sort of read rate while actually using the drive in your machine, you need to defragment it... I thought windows even did this on a weekly basis now as long as you aren't still running Windows XP or something? But yeah, there is no chance in hell that a 50gb game like GTA5 is going to be relying on Random seeks for data... just... no.

I'm talking about technology in general.  Game consoles are less impacted than others as the games have been built from ground up to stream sequentially off inadequate optical media, etc. for some time now.

It's a fact that magneto mechanical storage is primitive and archaic and is an Achilles heel holding back our technology for decades.

People want to talk about AI and computer vision?  How long does it take to commit a couple gigs of data to a HDD?  It needs to take an instant, not a couple minutes.  A human doesn't pause and display an hourglass or a progress bar for 90 seconds when recalling a vivid memory consisting of the equivalent of gigabytes of data in an instant.  The IO gap between CPU/RAM and storage is ridiculous and it has done nothing but grow ever since the initial move in the 1960s from non volatile universal core memory to leaky DRAM which necessitated a 3rd storage tier in the first place.

Stuff like XPoint can't come soon enough and displace and retire these primitive cave man storage contraptions.  It's time for IO to make the same leaps and bounds as CPU and RAM performance has for the past 30 years and catch up.

Does anybody use VHS and cassette anymore? Nope.  Why hard drives then?  Same shit.

Even if you want to argue sequential vs random we are still talking < 150 MB/s vs... 60+ GB/s.  That's still disgusting.  We shouldn't be measuring anything in KB/s or MB/s anymore.  We will be doing it right when our non volatile "hard drive" access time and bandwidth are indistinguishable from SiSoft Sandra scores...

The average Joe consumers here don't truly understand just how inhibiting and limiting IOPS has been to our technological process as a species for the past few decades.

100 MB/s was fast when your entire OS was <= 100 MB...  Not decades later with data measured in TB.

 

 

If you want to argue cost and capacity or how they are more important than speed then you still shouldn't be using HDDs, you should be using linear tape if you're going to be stingy and count gigabytes per penny and like to hoard a personal copy of the entire internet...



Conina said:
exdeath said:

HDD is primitive garbage that belongs in dumps with reel to reel, cassette, 8 track, floppy, and VHS.  This 1950s magnetic recording has hobbled our technology for far too long.  Say no to the IO bottleneck.

60+ GB/s CPUs and RAM and 1 gig internet and 10-100 gig LAN and we still fucking read/write code and data off a fucking primitive magnetic spindles using magnets at kilobytes per second access speeds.  wtf

 

Even the cheapest 2TB-SSD costs more than 4 times of an 2TB-SSHD (€500+ vs. €120) while an SSHD is only 4% to 40% slower than the SSD (totally depends of the game) running on an PS4. That means that the loading times on an SSD are only 1 to 16 seconds faster (again, that difference totally depends of the game) than on that "primitive garbage"... not very impressive: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-is-it-worth-upgrading-your-ps4-with-an-ssd

And after you started a game and loaded your savegame, further speed differences aren't even there from this point in many titles since the loading of the next level / adjoining areas is already done in the background while watching a cutscene or entering an area. 

So feel free to waste a lot of money if these 1 to 16 seconds loading time are really that important to you... but until the proportion between speed improvement and cost difference doesn't get better, HDDs and SSHDs still have their place.

 

Look at your chart

Ask yourself why do you we even have "load times" in the first place?

A PS4 is capable of 176 GB/s of main memory bandwidth.  Those games are all what, 30 GB?  

60 seconds of "load screen" = 10.5 TB of data moving gone by and an untold several trillion machine instructions.

Why is there a "load time" to load a single level?

Why do we have load times and hour glasses and progress bars at all with the unfathomable speed of modern microprocessor platforms?

Trillions of operations per second and 100s of GB/s of memory bandwidth, why does it take 60 seconds to "load" 900 MB of data every time we open a door or go around a corner?

 

Answer: Everything in our computing world, since the switch from nonvolatile core memory to volatile dynamic RAM in the 1960s, is built around catering to limitations of their primitive nonvolatile 3rd tier storage devices that starve the rest of the system to hundreds of orders of magnitude.  And in the PS4's case an outdated interface spec which only had to accommodate that primitive media rendering improvements even in the form of a compromised SATA II form factor SSD negligible.

It may sound like I'm just being spoiled about having to wait 30 seconds to load a video game but this has far more reaching implications on human technological progress over several decades than just waiting for video games to load.

Every aspect of human technology we interact with is impacted by load times, boot times, resume times, please wait, "in progress", "moving", "copying", "checking for changes", "scanning...", "comparing...", "searching, please wait some more, etc. while the CPU snoozes at 1% load waiting all eternity for a storage controller interrupt, all for the same reason:  Inadequate nonvolatile storage technology.

 Even NAND flash, especially in SATA form factors, is just a stop gap bandaid.



exdeath said:

 Even NAND flash, especially in SATA form factors, is just a stop gap bandaid.

So we agree that SSDs or other kinds of flash memory aren't much helping to speed up the process of (mostly sequential) data transfer in affordable home consoles so far.

So what is your solution for an affordable home console without any loading times? 20 - 50 GB RAM drives?

And even if someone of you has a 1-GigaBit-internet connection (which still costs a fortune) and is only available in very few towns around the world... that's still only 125 MegaByte... so it would be in the same ballpark as a "garbage" HDD inside a home console.

As long as any "solution" with more speed than an HDD is disproportional much more expensive, HDDs still have their raison d'être... or as said in German "ihre Daseinsberechtigung".

If not, please let us participate in your almighty wisdom and tell us your solution for fast but still affordable mass storage.