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Forums - Politics Discussion - Abortion & Politics: the basics

Final-Fan on 27 October 2016
JWeinCom said:

If you say the fetus is a person at 5 weeks, I don't know how you could get around it being murder, or at the very least, manslaughter to remove a potentially viable fetus from the mother if it doesn't survive.

Premature birth is not necessarily fatal, but it often is.  There is a huge difference in survival rates between 24 and 26 weeks, which is part of what makes that area so gray.  Premature birth also can potentially have long term negative consequences.

Hmm, I wasn't aware the consequences were so long lasting.  I wonder if it's proven that these problems are effect and not cause of the prematurity.  I have heard that many miscarriages are "caused" by there being something seriously wrong with the fetus, but I don't know much about that either. 



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Brii on 27 October 2016

One thing I hate is when some pro-life politicians put policies in place that make it difficult to get an abortion with the claim that they're only doing it for the sake of women's health, which is a thinly veiled lie.

More women in the US die during childbirth than they do from complications during abortions.

Some seem to ignore the inherent risks of carrying a pregnancy to term for a woman and dismiss it as just 'an inconvenience' that a woman who chooses abortion wants to be rid of. It's far more risky than the term 'inconvenience' implies and has long lasting consequences to a woman's life, even if they choose adoption. Her body will be forever changed, her work, finances and social life may be affected.

I don't personally think any blastocyst or zygote has the right to remain in a woman's womb and put them at risk unless she chooses to allow it. Sex is also not permission for it to do so, despite what some may claim



Danman27 on 27 October 2016
JWeinCom said:
Danman27 said:

The problem with that though, is that ending a human life isn't ok, even if it doesn't really affect me. I agree that there should probably be a period of time where a pregnancy can be aborted, but the current line we've drawn is way too late in the pregnancy. I guess pro-life isn't the best way to describe my opinion, but then again, I don't think that many people are COMPLETELY at either end of the spectrum. 

It is not your decision whether or not a fetus is a person.  It's not a topic you, or I for that matter, have any special knowledge or authority on, so your opinion is not relevant to the situation.  You're perfectly entitled to express your opinion, but there is no reason anybody should be forced to consider it.

So why are you debating the topic if it's no one's position to consider it? 



JWeinCom on 27 October 2016
Final-Fan said:
JWeinCom said:

If you say the fetus is a person at 5 weeks, I don't know how you could get around it being murder, or at the very least, manslaughter to remove a potentially viable fetus from the mother if it doesn't survive.

Premature birth is not necessarily fatal, but it often is.  There is a huge difference in survival rates between 24 and 26 weeks, which is part of what makes that area so gray.  Premature birth also can potentially have long term negative consequences.

Hmm, I wasn't aware the consequences were so long lasting.  I wonder if it's proven that these problems are effect and not cause of the prematurity.  I have heard that many miscarriages are "caused" by there being something seriously wrong with the fetus, but I don't know much about that either. 

It's hard to imagine that the issues caused by premature birth could be the causes.  A lot of the problems are more mental issues.  Besides, if a fetus normally develops in the womb for 9 months, it just kind of stands to reason that taking it out early would be a bad idea.

Danman27 said:
JWeinCom said:

It is not your decision whether or not a fetus is a person.  It's not a topic you, or I for that matter, have any special knowledge or authority on, so your opinion is not relevant to the situation.  You're perfectly entitled to express your opinion, but there is no reason anybody should be forced to consider it.

So why are you debating the topic if it's no one's position to consider it? 

There's a difference between discussing opinions and legislating opinions.



Locknuts on 28 October 2016
Final-Fan said:
Locknuts said:
The answer seems pretty obvious to me:

At what age has the youngest fetus ever been removed from a mother's womb and survived with assistance.

That is the age at which it is too late to abort a baby.

Even under those circumstances though, it's still a potential human being and should only be aborted after having been approved by a certain authority and only due to exceptional circumstances. For example: The mother was raped or the mother is not physically prepared to have the baby and will probably die if she gives birth.

We all have to live with our mistakes, and if you chose to have sex unprotected or while not in a long term relationship: have the child and deal with it.

"You did the crime, now do the time" is literally the worst argument against abortion.  It discredits you to even mention it sincerely, IMO.

It would benefit societies greatly if people would accept the consequences of their actions. How does it discredit someone to hold that view?



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Locknuts on 28 October 2016
Bandorr said:
Locknuts said:
The answer seems pretty obvious to me:

At what age has the youngest fetus ever been removed from a mother's womb and survived with assistance.

That is the age at which it is too late to abort a baby.

Even under those circumstances though, it's still a potential human being and should only be aborted after having been approved by a certain authority and only due to exceptional circumstances. For example: The mother was raped or the mother is not physically prepared to have the baby and will probably die if she gives birth.

We all have to live with our mistakes, and if you chose to have sex unprotected or while not in a long term relationship: have the child and deal with it.

You are trying to sweep a lot of stuff under the carpet with "if you choose(yes two  O's) to have sex - deal with it".

What if you are raped? What if a time later the mothers life is at danger? What if the condom breaks? What if the protection doesn't work?

You are assuming all abortions are from being "choosing" to have "unprotected" sex. Which I would be highly surprised if that even made up 50% little alone the 100% you are trying to claim.

At least read my whole comment before you reply.



TheLastStarFighter on 28 October 2016

Some excellent comments, starting with the OP, on a difficult topic. Kudos to you, VGCers.



Final-Fan on 28 October 2016
Locknuts said:
Final-Fan said:

"You did the crime, now do the time" is literally the worst argument against abortion.  It discredits you to even mention it sincerely, IMO.

It would benefit societies greatly if people would accept the consequences of their actions. How does it discredit someone to hold that view?

And what if I said that accepting the consequence of getting pregnant when you don't feel you can properly care for a child is "now you have to have an abortion"?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Locknuts on 30 October 2016
Bandorr said:
Locknuts said:

At least read my whole comment before you reply.

I did read it. Shame you couldn't muster up an actual answer though.  Then again if I had to play Devils advocate I couldn't either. It is an impossible stance to defend with any logic.  There is no "all or nothing" defense for something like this since there are so many different possibilities.

Once you start allowing compromises or loopholes then those loop holes and compromises will get "used" by people. Thus leading to the question of "why even restrict this if we allow people to game the system" and then we are back to the beginning again.

I mentioned a couple of those possibilities and stated that abortion would be acceptable under those circumstances. Not sure what you mean by 'all or nothing'.



Locknuts on 30 October 2016
Final-Fan said:
Locknuts said:

It would benefit societies greatly if people would accept the consequences of their actions. How does it discredit someone to hold that view?

And what if I said that accepting the consequence of getting pregnant when you don't feel you can properly care for a child is "now you have to have an abortion"?

Or put the child up for adoption? Or get your shit together and take care of the child rather than just accepting failure because you don't 'feel' like you can do it. I don't think you should be allowed to murder your children just because you don't want to put in the work to look after them.