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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony: We still believe in console generations

Normchacho on 26 October 2016
superchunk said:
Aura7541 said:

I fail to see how that addresses even one of my points. If the PS5 uses entirely different GPU and CPU architectures as well as a greater memory pool and different RAM type, then you can no longer call that a skinned PS4. A skinned PS4 is a PS4 iteration that still uses Jaguar and Volcanic Islands albeit with higher clock speeds, frequencies, and FLOPS. Or are you absolutely sure that the PS5 will still use those architectures? How do you know that Sony won't opt for the Vega and K12 successors, or the successors to those successors?

And we can't really say anything about the Scorpio. We have absolutely no information on its specs other than that it is more powerful than the Pro. Whether it is still fundamentally an XB1 is yet to be determined until we have our hands on the spec sheet.

You are ignoring the reason why MSony went to x86. THe CPU/GPU won't be significantly different architecture. It will be more powerful, yes but still within the family. Same as mobile.

Mobile has signifanct increases in power over 4 to 5 years (about a console generation), yet they still support the same apps, OS, etc. PS5 will be the same. Look at the Scropio. It has a significant jump in power compared to XboxOne, some have even argued its more like a generational change. Yet, it will run the same OS and games.

People are not thinking big enough about these consoles. Sony standardized their controller many generations ago and with PS4 they are standardizing on their OS and architecture. PS4 launched in 2013, first minor revision three years later, next revision (PS5) will be two/three years after that with new GPU.

Don't get caught up on my usage of the word skinned. That is just a plastic box and is meaningless. Think about lessons to be learned from mobile/pc markets in hardware (Sony is fundamentally an electronics company), think about the software they've put out with PS4 (psvue, vc-like capability, etc). This is standardization. PS4Pro is proof of their intent on incremental mobile-like hardware revisions. Sure, at some point they will call it a "next-gen" with a PS5. But that is no different than iPhone calling their versions 4, then 4s, then 5, etc. Just a new skin with incrementally more powerful hardware. Usage of the word "next-gen" at this point is just for marketing. There will no longer be generational differences in terms of software support. (for MSony)

That's rather silly reasoning. Sony saying that they are commited to generations means that they likely won't be prioritizing support for the PS4 when the PS5 comes out. Just like every other generation.

Don't expect Sony first party games to come to the PS4 for very long after the PS5 is out.

You should also remember that itterative hardware revisions are not helping the mobile market. It is becoming harder and harder for them to convince customers to upgrade each year.



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superchunk on 26 October 2016
Normchacho said:

That's rather silly reasoning. Sony saying that they are commited to generations means that they likely won't be prioritizing support for the PS4 when the PS5 comes out. Just like every other generation.

Don't expect Sony first party games to come to the PS4 for very long after the PS5 is out.

You should also remember that itterative hardware revisions are not helping the mobile market. It is becoming harder and harder for them to convince customers to upgrade each year.

Just like every other generation ... for MSony who focus on hardware power over all else.

Of course Sony will focus on PS5 hardware when they dev games, but that will be the same with PS4Pro. What will happen is the awesome scalabiility of the middleware, such as UE4, will scale the game to run on PS4 just as it does now down to XboxOne when a game is made on PS4, just as it will when Scorpio launches and that game can run on Xbox one (1.3TB) up to Scorpio (6TB). 

Again ... generations are just marketing.

Also, your statement on mobile market is just factually incorrect. Sales numbers for mobiles as a whole increase each year. The difference is there is a wide selection of options so some specific makers, like more recently Apple, are having troubles YoY.



superchunk on 26 October 2016
Shadow1980 said:

What else did the 360 & PS3 really bring over PS2 & Xbox? Online play and hard drives were already getting started in Gen 6, even if they weren't standard yet. Pretty much all of the genres we play were already there in Gen 6, and most were in Gen 5 (Gen 6 mainly brought us big open-world games like GTA, but even then there were much earlier examples of games with open-world elements).

Last time there was ever anything that really, truly, changed video games on a fundamental level was the switch from 2D sprite-based graphics to full 3D polygon-based graphics. We'll never see anything like that again. That lack of a truly fundamental shift in the nature of games has not made any generation before or after Gen 5 pointless.

Also, the Pro and Scorpio are more akin to the leap from the 3DS to the New 3DS. It's nowhere close to being a generational leap. The GPUs for both may be considerably more powerful than the base model PS4 & XBO, but they're both going to be the same platform and sharing all (or nearly all) of the same games. All that extra GPU power is going to 4K, HDR, and VR (and maybe improved framerates/resolution for those not playing on 4K TVs). The idea that either machine is anything remotely similar to being "next-gen" is laughable.

Meanwhile, the PS4 & XBO are a definite generational leap from the PS3 & 360. The games not only look far better, they also usually run at better resolutions and sometimes even higher framerates. As an example, I just went from finishing Gears of War 3 a few weeks ago, and I'm currently playing Gears 4. Well, Gears 4 puts any of the 360 Gears games to shame. They're not even in the same ball park in terms of visuals. And even though Gears 4's single-player runs at 30 FPS, it's a really damn smooth and steady 30. Same for Uncharted 4 vs. every 7th-gen game. You could maybe argue that this generation wasn't as big of a leap as others before it, but nobody can seriously argue that it's not a true generational leap. The Pro and Scorpio are just marginal improvements that exist mainly to take advantage of advances in display tech and the first serious, commercially-viable VR machines.

I think once we see the inevitable PlayStation 5, we'll see something that is most certainly a generational leap beyond the PS4.

You're focusing on the inremental changes to games due to increased in hardware resources. This will be the same as games are made on PS4Pro and Scorpio when compared to how they run on PS4/XboxOne, respectively. Its all just scaling at this point. When PS5 launches, it will over new PS5 labelled games that will be the same game running on PS4Pro, just scaled, no different than PS4Pro to PS4.

Just as my 5 year old phone has trouble running the latest OS/Apps, PS4 (5yrs old at least) will have trouble/not supported when PS5 launches. But, the PS4Pro will work fine. NAmes and generations are marketing.

PS4/Xbo are both 8core jaguar chips with <2TB GPUs on older AMD architectures.

PS4Pro and Scorpio will be on more powerful 8 core CPUs with 4 to 6TB GPUs on latest (polaris) architectures.

PS5/Next Box will be on more powerful n-core CPUs with 10-12TB GPUs on latest architectures at that time. Marketing will focus on "next-gen", but the games, the games will run on the last revisions and the new. The OS will be the same base with prettier UX and some new features. 

This formula is exactly what mobile has done and it is exactly why MSony shifted to x86 and why Nintendo went to ARM. (what I said would happen back in like 2010... just missed on Nintendo but hit home on MSony)



JRPGfan on 26 October 2016
Azzanation said:

Great. Expect to rebuy all your content again for the PS5. Console generations is nothing more than a cash grab and hype machine. Its one reason why i switched to PC gaming. I like my gaming library.

I think its more a matter off.... PS5 games wont run on a PS4.



superchunk on 26 October 2016
Shadow1980 said:
superchunk said:

You're focusing on the inremental changes to games due to increased in hardware resources. This will be the same as games are made on PS4Pro and Scorpio when compared to how they run on PS4/XboxOne, respectively. Its all just scaling at this point. When PS5 launches, it will over new PS5 labelled games that will be the same game running on PS4Pro, just scaled, no different than PS4Pro to PS4.

Your basis for this is... what, exactly?

To paraphrase that great poet Enzo Amore, if I had a dime for every time someone made a prognostication about some radical shift in the console market status quo and it came true I'd have... zero dimes!

None of this nonsense about "iterative/generation-less consoles" and "the end of generations (as we know them)" didn't even exist prior to this past spring. Now there's a multitude of gamers who consider it self-evident that this the future of the console market, even though there's no evidence to support such a thing happening. It's just another wild claim pulled out of thin air. The Pro and Scorpio are just one-off things, and their existence isn't surprising or seemingly unprecedented to anyone with a basic understanding of the history of the console market.

I have a few threads on this from 2010. Only WiiU missed the mark where NS seems to be correcting that. Evidence is pretty clear in the shift from fully custom to x86, PS4Pro/Scorpio prove it as well. Frankly, I don't understand why people seem to be against the concept.



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Aura7541 on 26 October 2016
superchunk said:

You are ignoring the reason why MSony went to x86. THe CPU/GPU won't be significantly different architecture. It will be more powerful, yes but still within the family. Same as mobile.

Mobile has signifanct increases in power over 4 to 5 years (about a console generation), yet they still support the same apps, OS, etc. PS5 will be the same. Look at the Scropio. It has a significant jump in power compared to XboxOne, some have even argued its more like a generational change. Yet, it will run the same OS and games.

People are not thinking big enough about these consoles. Sony standardized their controller many generations ago and with PS4 they are standardizing on their OS and architecture. PS4 launched in 2013, first minor revision three years later, next revision (PS5) will be two/three years after that with new GPU.

Don't get caught up on my usage of the word skinned. That is just a plastic box and is meaningless. Think about lessons to be learned from mobile/pc markets in hardware (Sony is fundamentally an electronics company), think about the software they've put out with PS4 (psvue, vc-like capability, etc). This is standardization. PS4Pro is proof of their intent on incremental mobile-like hardware revisions. Sure, at some point they will call it a "next-gen" with a PS5. But that is no different than iPhone calling their versions 4, then 4s, then 5, etc. Just a new skin with incrementally more powerful hardware. Usage of the word "next-gen" at this point is just for marketing. There will no longer be generational differences in terms of software support. (for MSony)

Even on mobiles, certain types of support get dropped. For instance, certain older iPhones cannot upgrade to iOS 10 and thus, cannot use apps that can only be used in iOS 10. Similar thing applies to the CPU and GPU, especially the latter. At some point, developers drop support for certain CPUs and GPUs because they are too out of date.

The reason why some people argue that the Scorpio is a next-gen system is because the magnitude of difference between the XB1 and Scorpio is greater than that between the PS4 and Pro. We have absolutely no idea what its specs are and you can play VR games on the Scorpio, but not on the XB1. Meanwhile, you can use PSVR on either the PS4 or the Pro. These are significant differences between how Sony and Microsoft handle the Pro and Scorpio, respectively.

I'm afraid you're missing the point on what the Pro purports to be: a more powerful PS4 that developers can take advantage of without spending so much effort on the modifications in graphical/technical performance. I came to this conclusion because Mark Cerny emphasized the ease of modifying games for the Pro. Your claims that the Pro is proof on the intent of incremental hardware revisions is nothing more than an empty assertion because an incremental business model will not allow for such ease of use for the developers.

The PS5 will definitely not use Jaguar for its CPU. It might end up having a larger RAM pool of a different type like GDDR5X or HBM2. The GPU may have a different architecture that has certain capabilities that previous GPUs do not have. At that point, the developers will need to put in more effort in order to take advantage of the PS5's technology because the difference in configuration between the PS5 and PS4 Pro will be much greater than that between the PS4 Pro and the PS4, even though all three use x86.



Zekkyou on 26 October 2016
superchunk said:

Why do any of you care if it is called new generation or not?

Scropio and PS4Pro gave you exactly what you all clamor about at each generation. More power. That's it.

What else did XboxOne and PS4 really bring over PS360? What new gameplay are they accomplishing with the new form factors?

Its all the same and yet you are joyous and scream with glee. There are no generations. Even the mobile space has stopped using that term completely and just go with whatever the yearly iterations are.

Fact is, when a PS5 is announced, it will be a skinned PS4 with more power and an OS upgrade.

You're right that the majority of the jump between the PS3/360 and PS4/X1 is in their specs (though i personally see no problem with this), but you're somewhat oversimplifying the process. The PS4 and X1 didn't simply offer more power, they offered more ways to use that power.

It's because of the above that we saw 2 mini generation jumps on the PS4/X1. The first was the jump between the 7th and 8th gen versions of cross-gen titles (the upgrades being limited to resolution, performance, and linearly scalable graphical features), and then another jump between those cross-gen titles and titles made specifically for the PS4 and X1 (games with brand new engines, capable of stuff that couldn't be properly scaled onto the PS3 and 360). The WiiU benefited from this too. It's why, despite the system itself being a relatively smaller jump over the PS3 and 360 (in some areas, actively worse than both), it's able to produce much better results. The combined effects of these two jumps carried over to the PC too. They're already capable of using much of that new tech, and are primed with the power needed to make use of it, but they're held back by many AAA titles needing to scale properly onto consoles. The newer the tech behind the console, the less extreme the effects of that need to scale. 

The Scorpio and Pro are only offering the first of those jumps. They're limited by their need to scale fully with the standard PS4 and X1, so their power will be focused on resolution, performance, and linear upgrades. My take-away from Sony's statement here is that the PS5, when it does release, will introduce those non-linear jumps (presumably along with another raw power jump). I expect it to be fully backwards compatible with the PS4 and Pro, but i wouldn't be surprise to see support for the standard PS4 dropped on day 1 for new PS5 titles, and support for the Pro scaled down in a similar fashion to the PS3.

Now, you clearly don't value graphical upgrades that much, and that's fine, but to those of us who do the distinction between these types of upgrades are important. I don't personally care what people do or don't call a generation, but as long as there is a desire for new and interesting game tech, there will be a limit to the scaling. 



superchunk on 26 October 2016
Shadow1980 said:

You're gonna have to help me out on this one. Your post history only goes back to Jan. 2011, and your threads history doesn't show any threads you personally started on this subject.

After spending some time on Google and trying every conceivable combination of search terms I could think of, I could find nothing on the internet that resembles the current discussions about "the end of generations" or "iterative consoles." The only serious claims about a big paradigm shift close to this was Michael Pachter's 2009 claim that the seventh generation would be the final console generation, which reflected similar claims from back then that OnLive or something similar to it was going to make consoles obsolete very soon. That was seven years ago. There was as far as I could find any serious discussion of generationless consoles prior to this year.

I didn't see what I thought was in 2010, but found where I started to pitch my ideas of death to dedicated gaming consoles and merge to mobile philosophy. However the focus is on OS and non-gaming functionality not hardware specifically. I know I've been more direct on this on this forum but, I cannot find it directly. Probably in my thread on hardware comparisons or someoneelses. However, this topic is an extention of the moble/gaming console discussions below as I see it.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=143762 (2012) 

Focus is on why consoles are no longer dedicated gaming but smart tv boxes for everything. The summary pushes the idea of dedicated console gaming as a thing of the past.

MS: I was right, just replace win8 with win10.
Apple/Google: Basically right, we see both support gaming with controllers and  we have other gaming devices such as AppleTV, FireTV and Shield. Though, they can't break into the market with the same impact due to the big three. I did think they would do better.
Nintendo: wrong/right... never went to support Android directly but did have apps, much improved browser (best in gen), but not quite mobile comparable.
Sony: I was right, integrated with Vita and a streaming service, lots of apps/mobile integration and this year announced it would push more strongly in mobile gaming space from its PS line.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=153041  (2013)

Focus here is a direct follow-up to previous thread. I was right in that MSony moved to mobile style experiences with full smart-OS, though Sony stuck with proprietary vs Android based. Still, they both had full apps, browsers, social media, etc. Also funny how the firsts revisions of these consoles are getting hyptd for 4K media playback and lack of that support in PS4Pro. Strongly supports my point that consumers demand non-Gaming functionality to match that ot full smart-OSs. Nintendo even later realized this miss and with the latest versions of its social system they added integration with real social media. The NS is a touch screen tablet and will surely continue this march towards mobile philosophy.

(side note: I was right that both consoles are being replaced early... though at that time I was thinking 2015/16, but I did later revise that to 2016 reveal and 2017 launch in this thread: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=182832 (2014)

Now, you may ask, "wtf does this have to do with hardware subject"? During this time I was caught up with consoles following mobile trends, mobile catching up to console power and scaling to play same games, as well as consoles leaving dedicated gaming to be come entertainment devices / smart devices. I know I discussed console replacements moving forward as well, but likely not in my own threads. I've been consistent in my belief that the gaming industry is following mobile, hardware launches is just part of that trend. 



Michelasso on 27 October 2016

I like me console generations. They give a clear cut, specify which game is for which HW and tell me when it is time to upgrade. Then the PS5 most likely will be backward compatible. If I wanted to follow the PC route I would have bought a PC. No, thanks.



JRPGfan on 27 October 2016
superchunk said:

Why do any of you care if it is called new generation or not?

Scropio and PS4Pro gave you exactly what you all clamor about at each generation. More power. That's it.

What else did XboxOne and PS4 really bring over PS360? What new gameplay are they accomplishing with the new form factors?

Its all the same and yet you are joyous and scream with glee. There are no generations. Even the mobile space has stopped using that term completely and just go with whatever the yearly iterations are.

Fact is, when a PS5 is announced, it will be a skinned PS4 with more power and an OS upgrade.

I dont care.

XB360:

PS4:

Graphics in open world RPGs seem better, with the PS4 vs the older PS3/XB360 gen.

 

"What new gameplay are they accomplishing with the new form factors?"

Pretty sure VR wasnt around for the PS3/XB360.

You can now play a game as if your "inside" the game world, instead of just looking at a stationary flat 2D surface on a screen.

 


"Fact is, when a PS5 is announced, it will be a skinned PS4 with more power and an OS upgrade."

That doesnt sound like a bad thing? PS4 bet heavily on packing as much performance/$ into a console, and won out on it.

Thats not really a bad way to go about things.



They just have to make sure the PS5 has backwards compatability.

Stick with x86 & amd gpu for the PS5, and that hopefully shouldnt be a problem.