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Forums - Sony Discussion - CNET: How the PS4 Pro made me a believer

jonathanalis said:

Man, I really want to know about the science/processing behind checkerboard rendering.
There is any open scientific paper about it?

Or even a reference to a more deep explanation of how it works?

Thanks in advance

Someone from neogaf tried to explain what they understood of it in a gif:

Yeah the end result might not be as good as native 4k  but it apparently gets close.

I mean look at Horizon Zero dawn in 4k (checkerboard):

http://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Thunderjaw_Tallneck_1465873632.jpg

Jaggies are issue? does it need to be run in a higher resolution?



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does it come with the stand?



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JRPGfan said:
jonathanalis said:

Man, I really want to know about the science/processing behind checkerboard rendering.
There is any open scientific paper about it?

Or even a reference to a more deep explanation of how it works?

Thanks in advance

Someone from neogaf tried to explain what they understood of it in a gif:

Yeah the end result might not be as good as native 4k  but it apparently gets close.

I mean look at Horizon Zero dawn in 4k (checkerboard):

http://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Thunderjaw_Tallneck_1465873632.jpg

Jaggies are issue? does it need to be run in a higher resolution?

Oh, thank you.

Seems pretty simple, can run in linear time.

So simple that I think im going to try it out on matlab. Get a 4k image, select the red pixels, the orange pixels calculate the green pixels and form an image. And I can compare with the original 4k image with a image quality metric. I could compare too with the 1080p and 1440p versions of the original.

(im more a image processing guy than computer graphics, so I think thats all I can do)

I think I will present in an new topic, but I let ou know when it is ready.

 

But for this horizon shot, I had to zoomed it a lot to see some jaggies, but I dont know if some of them are cos of jpg compression or checkerboard rendering. But I thing I cannot perceive from more than 1,5 meters from TV.



Why bother with all that Jonathanalis ?

There are 4k screenshots taken from a PS4pro on the net.
If you want to know what games look like on the PS4pro you could just look at a screen shot.

Like the one in my post.

 

*edit:

"But for this horizon shot, I had to zoomed it a lot to see some jaggies, but I dont know if some of them are cos of jpg compression or checkerboard rendering."

Yeah I had to zoom in too, and barely noticed any at all.

I think this Checkerboard rendering style Sony patented is really smart.



greenmedic88 said:
JRPGfan said:

Checkerboard style is fine.


I mean look at this:  

https://cnet4.cbsistatic.com/img/WlSUJngTBz_jK_bONoHmuR10t2Y=/2016/10/20/a37b7b7d-a5fc-4429-ab33-417ab40a1665/daysgonescreensseptevent3840x216001.jpg

Can you see alot of jaggies? (I cant)

Will Native 4k be that much better? (no, imo)

It will be sharper. Not night and day difference, but noticeably sharper when looking at an actual 4K display with video actively rendering. At that point, it's going to depend upon how close the viewer is to the screen and the size of the screen.

But at normal living room viewing distances, it won't make a difference. Those who play with 4k displays at a desk and play seated at the desk will probably be able to tell, as will the odd duck console player who stands within arm's reach of their display when they play. 

It feels like this discussion has been covered ad nauseum already when 1080p displays and the 7th gen were new. 

The article says the difference won't be noticeable but you're saying noticeably sharper?



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JRPGfan said:

Why bother with all that Jonathanalis ?

There are 4k screenshots taken from a PS4pro on the net.
If you want to know what games look like on the PS4pro you could just look at a screen shot.

Like the one in my post.

 

*edit:

"But for this horizon shot, I had to zoomed it a lot to see some jaggies, but I dont know if some of them are cos of jpg compression or checkerboard rendering."

Yeah I had to zoom in too, and barely noticed any at all.

I think this Checkerboard rendering style Sony patented is really smart.

Cos it activated my scientific mind. Im excited to see objective results, rather than what my eyes can see.

And implementing is the best way to learn how a process work.

:)



greenmedic88 said:

It will be sharper. Not night and day difference, but noticeably sharper when looking at an actual 4K display with video actively rendering. At that point, it's going to depend upon how close the viewer is to the screen and the size of the screen.

But at normal living room viewing distances, it won't make a difference. Those who play with 4k displays at a desk and play seated at the desk will probably be able to tell, as will the odd duck console player who stands within arm's reach of their display when they play. 

It feels like this discussion has been covered ad nauseum already when 1080p displays and the 7th gen were new. 

I think the bolded part is that part in all this most people are refusing to factor in. 

Already with 1080p vs 720p/900p... sitting at average viewing distances in living room settings (7-12ft) it's already difficult to tell resolutions apart. Or at the very least one has to look harder to tell 900p apart from 1080p than they would say 720p from 1080p. 

The simple truth is that that becomes even harder every pixel more than 1080p we go. The difference between 1800p to 2160p is not gonna be anywhere near as obvious as 900p to1080p (which in of itself wasn't even that obvious to begin with. 

And from all indications, those that has seen the truck in action basically all see that unless standing about 1-3ft away from the TV it's all but impossible to tell the difference. . And I would really like to know who uses a 55"+ tv from under 3 feet away. 

JRPGfan said:
jonathanalis said:

Man, I really want to know about the science/processing behind checkerboard rendering.
There is any open scientific paper about it?

Or even a reference to a more deep explanation of how it works?

Thanks in advance

Someone from neogaf tried to explain what they understood of it in a gif:

Yeah the end result might not be as good as native 4k  but it apparently gets close.

Jaggies are issue? does it need to be run in a higher resolution?

That gif isn't even a good description of how checkerboard works in the PS4.

With that gif it all starts from a 1080p image. Checkerboard starts from at least the pixel equivalent of two 1080p images. so something more like 2560x1440p/3200x1800p.....etc then checkerboards from there. this is why you end up with an image that is at least better than native 1440p but has the resolution detail of 4k without the sharpness of 4k.

But like I said above, that sharpness will really come down to how close you are to the TV. If at 12ft away some find it hard telling the difference between. 900p and 1080p, I strongly doubt anyone will honestly at a glance spot the difference between native 4k and checkerboard 4k at anything further than 4ft away.

But that's left to be seen. By this time next month we will all know for certain. 



double post



deskpro2k3 said:
does it come with the stand?

most likely no



jonathanalis said:
JRPGfan said:

Someone from neogaf tried to explain what they understood of it in a gif:

Yeah the end result might not be as good as native 4k  but it apparently gets close.

I mean look at Horizon Zero dawn in 4k (checkerboard):

http://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Thunderjaw_Tallneck_1465873632.jpg

Jaggies are issue? does it need to be run in a higher resolution?

Oh, thank you.

Seems pretty simple, can run in linear time.

So simple that I think im going to try it out on matlab. Get a 4k image, select the red pixels, the orange pixels calculate the green pixels and form an image. And I can compare with the original 4k image with a image quality metric. I could compare too with the 1080p and 1440p versions of the original.

(im more a image processing guy than computer graphics, so I think thats all I can do)

I think I will present in an new topic, but I let ou know when it is ready.

 

But for this horizon shot, I had to zoomed it a lot to see some jaggies, but I dont know if some of them are cos of jpg compression or checkerboard rendering. But I thing I cannot perceive from more than 1,5 meters from TV.

It's a bit more sophisticated than that gif suggests.

The ps4 pro automatically generates an ID buffer while rendering which helps with anti aliasing
www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-inside-playstation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

Right now, post-process anti-aliasing techniques like FXAA or SMAA have their limits. Edge detection accuracy varies dramatically. Searches based on high contrast differentials, depth or normal maps - or a combination - all have limitations. Sony had fashioned its own, highly innovative solution.

"We'd really like to know where the object and triangle boundaries are when performing spatial anti-aliasing, but contrast, Z [depth] and normal are all imperfect solutions," Cerny says. "We'd also like to track the information from frame to frame because we're performing temporal anti-aliasing. It would be great to know the relationship between the previous frame and the current frame better. Our solution to this long-standing problem in computer graphics is the ID buffer. It's like a super-stencil. It's a separate buffer written by custom hardware that contains the object ID."

It's all hardware based, written at the same time as the Z buffer, with no pixel shader invocation required and it operates at the same resolution as the Z buffer. For the first time, objects and their coordinates in world-space can be tracked, even individual triangles can be identified. Modern GPUs don't have this access to the triangle count without a huge impact on performance.

"As a result of the ID buffer, you can now know where the edges of objects and triangles are and track them from frame to frame, because you can use the same ID from frame to frame," Cerny explains. "So it's a new tool to the developer toolbox that's pretty transformative in terms of the techniques it enables. And I'm going to explain two different techniques that use the buffer - one simpler that's geometry rendering and one more complex, the checkerboard."

<snip>

Checkerboarding up to full 4K is more demanding and requires half the basic resolution - a 1920x2160 buffer - but with access to the triangle and object data in the ID buffer, beautiful things can happen as technique upon technique layers over the base checkerboard output.

"First, we can do the same ID-based colour propagation that we did for geometry rendering, so we can get some excellent spatial anti-aliasing before we even get into temporal, even without paying attention to the previous frame, we can create images of a higher quality than if our 4m colour samples were arranged in a rectangular grid... In other words, image quality is immediately better than 1530p," Cerny explains earnestly.

"Second, we can use the colours and the IDs from the previous frame, which is to say that we can do some pretty darn good temporal anti-aliasing. Clearly if the camera isn't moving we can insert the previous frame's colours and essentially get perfect 4K imagery. But even if the camera is moving or parts of the scene are moving, we can use the IDs - both object ID and triangle ID to hunt for an appropriate part of the previous frame and use that. So the IDs give us some certainty about how to use the previous frame. "